Robert Cullen - Northern Ireland Eligible?

Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

He's a Japanese citizen, he's not a citizen of Northern Ireland.

If he went to Northern Ireland he'd be going as a naturalized citizen. He's about as close to becoming an Northern Ireland NT player as a Canadian NT player or a Zambian NT player.

 

Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

Does he still have his Northern Ireland citizenship? Without that he will never get work permit...

 

Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

With his father from NIRL he wouldn't have any problem to get a British passport, and out of the same reason he will be able to play for NIRL. He would have to lose Japanese citizenship though.

But if the question is if he wants to do that, we are entering the realm of pure speculation. But Cullen is quite famous for being very Japanese and not growing up bilingually. He speaks the typical English of a Japanese who learnt it in school. He also said that he doesn't have many links to NIRL.

Then again, he made the step of going to Europe. So if he gets a call from Belfast... ?

 

Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

I don't know anything about the N. Ireland team, but there is no way they can be worse than Cullen.

Seriously you do not want him. Plays for a crappy team in the Netherlands. He couldn't even score in J2.

Overall, just terrible.

 

Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

May I ask, have you watched him much? Or are you just aware of his heritage.

 

Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

I believe he could do that, what I don't know is if he's willing to relinquish his japanese citizenship. But whatever makes him happy, a career is too short and national team duties are something every player wishes to know.

 

Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

No, he couldnt.
I didnt make a big thing of this issue, before, because the guy obviously doesnt want to hear that Cullen cant play for NI, and he isnt going to let facts get in his way. I didnt want to get in a big argument with someone who wasnt interested in hearing the truth. However, I think its important to clarify what is, and is not, the true situation, lest other people are misled.

This is an issue that applies to many young players who are Japanese kids with at least one foreign parent, and one of the weeklies even did an article about it a year or so ago, when guys like Havenaar, Cullen and the two Nakajima-Farran brothers were facing the big decision. It is an issue that is understood in precise detail by all "haafu" kids who play football, and trust me, they have had lawyers examine it from every angle so they know their options. Every one of them must make a clear decision at age 20 to either play for Japan or play for another country. Cullen and Havenaar (as well as Gotoku Sakai, Sergio Escudero and several others) chose to play for Japan. the Nakajima-Farran boys chose Canada. All of them had to do so when they turned 20.
Why?

Read this, carefully:

The rule, proposed by the Algerian Football Federation and accepted by a majority vote of the Congress, eliminates the age limit at which a player can opt to request a change of federations after having participated in the youth teams of one country.
Players who have not played an 'A' international match for their country, meaning a match in a competitive international tournament such as the Asian Cup, World Cup, or World Cup qualifying - and excluding friendlies - would now be eligible to switch to any federation of a country for which they held citizenship at the time they played for a youth team of the original country.

Actually it's not quite as simple as that, because Articles 15, 16, 17 and 18, in relation to the eligibility of players still apply. Those articles deal with the conditions under which a player could previously switch nationalities, including the concurrent nationality requirement, and the 'A' international match limitation.


Let me re-quote the most critical part of the above statement.

"...eligible to switch to any federation of a country for which they held citizenship at the time they played for a youth team of the original country."

In Japan, the age of seniority is 20. At the age of 20, a person who is listed as a citizen based on birth, but is eligible for citizenship of another country, MUST declare his nationality, and abandon any other nationality. Although there ARE countries where a player can change citizenship and not be "cap tied", Japan is not such a country, because Japan DOES NOT RECOGNIZE DUAL NATIONALITY!!!

Robert Cullen played for Japan U-23 several times in the months of January February and April 2008. Since he was born in June 1985, that would make him 22 at the time. He would have had to declare his Japanese nationality AT LEAST two years prior to the games in question, and therefore would have had to renounce any other citizenship.

Therefore, Robert Cullen COULD NOT POSSIBLY have held Northern Ireland citizenship at the time he played the match. Thus, based on the precise wording of the FIFA regulation copied above, N.Ireland is NOT "...a country for which (Cullen) held citizenship at the time he played for a youth team of (Japan)."

He isnt eligible to play for any country other than Japan. Period.

Dont let this guy try to tell you otherwise, because he clearly doesnt know what he is talking about.

 

Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

Neither the Japanese FA, nor the Japanese Government, determines what National Teams a player may represent, FIFA does.

FIFA's Eligibility criteria are to be found in their Statutes, specifically Article 7 (Page 60) "Acquisition of a new nationality" and Article 8 (Pages 60 and 61) "Change of Association":
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/01/48/60/05/fifastatuten2011_e.pdf

From the above Articles, it is quite clear that (a) Cullen is quite entitled to British Nationality (i.e. a UK Passport) via his UK-born father, and (b) may switch to representing the Irish Football Association*, since the former age limit on switching has now been removed, and he is not already tied to another Association (in this case, Japan) by virtue of having represented their "A" International team in a competitive match.

Of course, it may be that by opting to switch to play for NI, Cullen may jeopardise his right to Japanese Citizenship (I have no idea about that) and if so, he might therefore be reluctant to forego it.

But in principle, there is absolutely no reason why he may not represent NI/the IFA, that much is clear from FIFA's Statutes/Articles governing the matter.


* - British Nationality is a "Nationality entitling players to represent more than one Association" - see FIFA Article 6 (page 59). And out of the four British Associations (English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish) Robert Cullen's Northern Ireland-born father means that for him, the relevant British Association is the IFA.

 

Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

Do they teach you how to read in Northern Ireland?

Sorry if that sounds like an insult, but youre asking for it by posting the above comment without reading what I just wrote, and you just quoted.

"FIFA's Eligibility criteria are to be found in their Statutes, specifically Article 7 (Page 60) "Acquisition of a new nationality" and Article 8 (Pages 60 and 61) "Change of Association":

Indeed. And if you had quoted the Statutes I wouldnt have to waste MY time typing them out . . . I could have just quoted your post. Never mind though, I dont have to type very much.

8 CHANGE OF ASSOCIATIONS
1. If a player has more than one nationality . . .


Did you read what I wrote, or DIDNT YOU?????
Japan does not recognize dual nationality. I know this is a hard concept for you to wrap your mind around, but Japan - unlike the UK and many other countries who DO recognize dual nationality - does NOT recognize dual nationality. An adult person who is a Japanese citizen is ONLY a Japanese citizen, and is NOT a citizen of any other country because Japan does not recognize dual nationality.

Therefore, when a player turns 20 - the age of majority - they must sign a statement voluntarily renouncing foreign nationality in order to obtain a passport. From that point on, they only have one nationality. Therefore they do NOT fall into the category of "a player (who) has more than one nationality"

Did you get that?
Are you sure?

Good. Now .... in February 2008, Robert Cullen travelled to the USA to play for the Japan U23 NT. Since he travelled to the USA, he MUST have had a passport. Therefore he MUST have renounced his citizenship in N.Ireland. Therefore he COULD NOT have had N.Irish citizenship at the time he played a match for Japan.

Now quit making a bloody fool of yourself by arguing to the contrary. That is straight out of FIFA's own statutes.

 

Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

I watched.

I saw the result

Im very disappointed that you would waste my time so utterly.

 

Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

Calm down.

Cullen is undoubtedly eligible for a UK Passport. And combined with that, his NI-born father means he is eligible to represent the IFA/NI.

On that basis, are you claiming that the Japanese Government (or Football Association) have the power to prevent him taking up his British citizenship?

That would be ridiculous - all he would have to do is take a flight* from Netherlands to the UK, present his own and his father's Birth Certificates etc, and the UK Passport is his.

Or is the Japanese Government eg going to send an Agent to kidnap him and repatriate him back to his homeland? (I thought those tactics were more North Korean, than Japanese, myself).

Now if you tell me that alternatively, Japan would withdraw his Japanese Nationality, I'm sure you're right, but that would NOT affect any newly-acquired British Nationality.

Of course, Cullen may be unwilling to forego his Japanese Nationality in return for being eligible to play for the Northern Ireland NT, and as big an NI fan as I am, I certainly wouldn't blame him for that!

But the fact remains, Japan cannot deny him the right to UK Nationality (should he choose it), nor would FIFA then deny him the right to represent the Northern Ireland NT (should they choose him).

Back to you...


* - In fact thinking about it, mightn't even have to visit the UK - I imagine the British Embassy in the Netherlands could issue the relevant Passport.

 

Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

I think you're missng Matsu's point.

In order to play for Country B when he has already represnted Country A at any level, he needs to have had Country B's passport at the moment he represented Country A.

Japan does not recognize dual citizenship past 20yr old so it was impossible for Cullen to have had 2 passports when he represented Japan's U23 team when he was 22 yrs old. So yes, he can fly to NI tomorrow and become NI citizen but FIFA will not let him play for NI.

With that said, I think someone will find a way around this rule if they really wanted to.

 

Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

Thank you for expanding upon Matsu's point more clearly (and more courteously!).

It is not a question of whether or not cullen had a Passport at the time of obtaining his majority, rather it was whether he had British citizenship.

Under the "Acquisition by Descent" provisions of the (1981) British Nationality Act,
(1)A person born outside the United Kingdom... ...shall be a British citizen if at the time of the birth his father or mother—
(a) is a British citizen otherwise than by descent;

Therefore at the time of his birth (1985), Cullen was a British citizen, whether he ever availed of it or not (and regardless of whether he obtained a British passport).

Which leaves open the question of what exactly the Japanese Government required of him at the time he obtained his majority.

Cullen may explicitly have been required to renounce any other (non-Japanese) citizenship to which he was entitled, but was he also required to register that renunciation with the British Government at the same time, as required by the 1981 Act:
Renunciation.
(1)If any British citizen of full age and capacity makes in the prescribed manner a declaration of renunciation of British citizenship, then... ... the Secretary of State shall cause the declaration to be registered.
(2)On the registration of a declaration made in pursuance of this section the person who made it shall cease to be a British citizen.

Therefore I contend that it would not have been enough for the Japanese Government unilaterally to have required him to renounce his British citizenship (for it no longer to apply), the British Government also would have been required to register that renunciation.

Do we know that they (British Government) did?

Indeed.

For the whole trend of recent changes to FIFA's international eligibility criteria has been towards loosening/removing the restrictions on an individual player's right to choose between valid Nationalities which he may hold.

Remember, FIFA have also re-worked their Articles in order to prevent National Governments giving out Citizenship in such a way as to avoid the need for a player to have the usual connection with his new country (eg Qatar and Cape Verde giving Passports to Brazilian-born players).

Consequently, I cannot see how FIFA would conversely accept a National Government acting in such a way as to prevent a player representing another country with which he undoubtedly does have a valid connection - especially should they have no intention of giving him a competitive "A" International cap themselves.

If both Cullen and the IFA were prepared to push this (unlikely, imo), I suspect they'd have a case.

 

Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

hmm..guess he is eligible then!!

He struggles to score (as with all Japanese strikers) but I don't think he's all round game is as bad as people are making it out to be.

 

Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

Although both parts have some valid points, I have to say GreenWhiteandArmy seems to be the one that makes most sense, while actually showing a little bit of courtesy along the way

But atleast between other countries, this has often been a case by case thing, and its really hard to say what is right and what is not. We had a similar thing in Norway a few months ago with a guy called Mikkel Diskerud who eventually chose to represent USA and not Norway ( although he had U18 and U19 caps for Norway).However, as Matsu so "kindly" points out )), the fact that Japan doesnt approve of dual citizenship of course makes this case a bit different than others....But even so, if Cullen REALLY wanted to play for Northern Ireland, it sounds like he could find a way despite of that.

 

Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

Of course not. Cullen could become British any time he wants. And he doesnt even have to have a parent from N.Ireland to do that.

But you seem to be ignoring not only the specific wording of the FIFA rules but also the intent. FIFA does not want to promote the practice of jumping from confederation to confederation to find out which one will let you play for their national team. Teams like Bahrain and Qatar ALREADY field teams that dont have a single domestically born player in the squad. Therefore FIFA has always been in a careful balancing act between the needs of people who legitimately want to represent a country that they consider "home", and the danger that any country with enough money can buy a World Cup-winning team. This is a very difficult thing to do, because there are always going to be cases on one side or the other that seem "inequitable".

But somewhere, FIFA has to draw the line, and they do so with extreme care, and every single word in the regulations is debated over for hours or days. Im not using hyperbole here. Im serious: EVERY. SINGLE. WORD.

Therefore, if the specific wording of a FIFA regulation makes it clear that Cullen cannot represent Northern Ireland, that is EXACTLY what was intended by the wording. Of course Cullen can become a UK citizen any time he likes. But he CANNOT represent the football team of any country other than Japan.

PERIOD.

And Basse - what difference does politeness make. When you talk BS without any basis for your comments, and someone who deals with issues like this in his own personal life tells you you are wrong, either you admit it, or you deserve any sort of criticism you get.

Cullen CANNOT PLAY FOR IRELAND.
That is a fact, and I will willingly bet anyone on this board 100,000 yen that this is true. In fact, Ill give you 2:1 odds. Hell, Ill give you 10:1 odds if I can get some fool to take the bet. Its free money for me.

The FIFA regulations are clear - you cant play international football for two different countries, except in EXTREMELY limited and specific cases, which are carefully identified by the wording of the FIFA regulations. Cullen has already played for Japan. End of story.

 

Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

Doesnt matter. This is an issue that Japan has been dealing with for over 50 years, and literally hundreds of thousands of people (including me, by the way) have been through the process. Over the years the process has been refined many times based on cases where people tried to "game" the system. Nowadays, to become a Japanese citizen (or to remain a Japanese citizen in a case where you had eligibility for another citizinship while underage), you have to make a written declaration which says - essentially - "I am acting of my own free will, voluntarily and without coercion. I want to be a Japanese citizen. I do not want to be a citizen of any other country."

This is a signed document which remains attached to your koseki from that day until the day of your death. Anyone who knows the first thing about the Japanese koseki system will understand what this means. Your written declaration that you do not WANT to be a British citizen is sure to pop up if you were to try to play football for the N.Ireland national team. And that would be true even if you had never played for Japan U-23 team.

If you look at the way this discussion has gone it should be obvious where the "problem" lies.

First you claimed that Cullen was eligible .

When pointed our that he had represented Japan, you said "but now there are new rules"

When I posted the new rule and showed why it doesnt apply to Cullen, you said "Oh, but its the FIFA statutes."

When I posted the FIFA statutes and showed why it doesnt apply to Cullen, you said "Oh, but that wouldnt be fair from Britain's rules on citizenship".

Now Ive pointed out why Britains rules on citizenship dont apply (because there is a written statement on file, in Cullen's koseki file, saying he renounces British citizenship.

Im sure you will come up with some other objection now. Its the way people always act when they cant admit they are wrong. Sorry buddy, Im a 50-year old naturalized Japanese citizen who has been through the process myself, I know many people whose kids have been through the process when they turned 20, and I even wrote an article about the subject several years ago. I know what Im talking about, and there is little point in saying any more, now that your case has been reduced to just some lame insistence that somehow "it wouldnt be fair" for Japan to "deprive him" of his "rights" (which makes no sense because nobody has a "right" to play football for two different national teams. It is a privilege, and an honour to play for even ONE national team, not a "right")

Cullen probably could, indeed, reclaim his UK citizenship if he chose to do so. Even though he renounced it in writing. However, one thing he CAN NOT do is play football for the N.Ireland national team. That is a stone-solid fact and nothing you do or say is going to change it.

 

Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/sports/T111003002475.htm

Says here (quite briefly) that Cullen is 'eyeing a move' in the winter transfer window.........I can imagine him sitting by his mailbox waiting for an offer.