Riquelme quits the national team

Discussion in 'Argentina: Selecciones Nacionales' started by argentine soccer fan, Mar 10, 2009.

  1. NYC_COSMOS

    NYC_COSMOS BigSoccer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2007
    Location:
    Queens, NY
    Club:
    CA Vélez Sársfield
    Country:
    Argentina
    The classic example of Riquelme and the reasons why I love/hate him is the 3-1 game against Brazil in 2005. I honestly thought that we where going to put a serious hurting to Brazil after going into the half at 3-0.

    Riquelme was on fire, he could do NO WRONG and he capped it off with a brilliant goal (back heel volley included). Then came the second half and he STUNK it up on the field. Almost as if he was saying "I've done enough".

    Of course we now how it ended, with Brazil getting an goal off an amazing Roberto Carlos free kick. But in the end it was that "i've done enough" attitude that really got to me that day. Granted that he pulled off an amazing goal and that day really led La Seleccion to victory but the bad taste in my mouth was already there.

    Sorry Riquelme. Sorry.


  2. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2005
    Location:
    Central Texas Hill Country
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Country:
    Argentina
    So it was 138 not 148:rolleyes: Things obviously look clearer and more open when you are watching a highlight in slow motion how you didn't factor that in is astonishing Phil and you question my understanding of game-play. At full speed, the wide attacker was marked up until the time Riquelme started turning to his right. The truth is Riquelme's passing contribution is considerably more positive than negative and it's far from close considering the amount of touches he gets. Changing gears back to Aguero for a second, with the piss poor finishing he's showing today against Mallorca, I'm not understanding of why you are convinced he's going to all of a sudden start putting the gols away next weekend.
  3. phil80

    phil80 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    It has nothing to do with slow motion. The player was open before Riquelme was sealed off and the ball did not get to him, this is a general theme with his play. It really is not a difficult concept to comprehend. Now, you can disagree with the concept but beating around the bush is getting nowhere. As for Aguero, if you think he is incapable of scoring then you must not have been watching him the past few seasons. He has not shown it for the nt but if you cant see the potential then i dont know what to tell you (like how it took you so long to accept the fact messi deserved the credit he was receiving).
  4. aerez

    aerez Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    That's a premature comment, when you outweigh everything Aguero has done for 18 months to a 2 week bad stint. At the same time, Aguero is having a rough run, so you are somewhat right about next week.

    I'm skimmed the recent conversation and I have to say this. Riquelme is the type of player that is clinical to chemistry to giving varying degrees of complexity. You can have your Tevez's, Messi's and Aguero going full blast with all the energy in the world, but it can also become predictable. With varying degrees of players, is what attributes to an excellent squad. Riquelme was one of thsoe degrees of players, he was that other level with another type of skill. As for disadvantages and advantages to the type of players that each player can be compared to, a pros and cons chart can easily and subjectively give a better constructive view of Riquelme vs Messi/Aguero debates. It doesn't matter, because Riquelme being slow doesn't mean anything, it never has in his career, in fact one could argue it benefits him as a player.


  5. illusion

    illusion Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2005
    Location:
    Emirates Stadium
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Country:
    Argentina
    I have recorded this match on vhs :D I deleted the second half!

    Yah superb display by JRR and a one-two with Lucho and GOAL!

    Saviola did well too and I hate him cuz he wasted his talent!
  6. illusion

    illusion Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2005
    Location:
    Emirates Stadium
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Country:
    Argentina
    Helping is fine but they are not natural AM and can't comparing with Xavi and Iniesta. Different role!
  7. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2005
    Location:
    Central Texas Hill Country
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Country:
    Argentina
    Clearly it is a difficult concept to comprehend. Slow motion from an elevated computer monitor view provides a completely different perspective of what a player can actually see on the pitch at real time.

    You see Phil I never said he is incapable of finishing, I said he's just not doing it consistently especially not now for Atletico and not yet for the national team. Potential is wonderful but it means nothing until it gets results. We have a qualifier next weekend against a side we should destroy but his lack of form now is a legitimate concern and if you can't see that, then I don't know what tell you Phil.


    C'mon Phil it wasn't a matter of accepting, it was the fact that at time the fanboys were going off about him he still hadn't started to show the improvements that he has. He's grown considerably in the past year and is becoming a much more complete player than he was when the wank-fest began. Sorry if I'd just rather rate players on end product not potential. I still think many brutally overrate him but I do still think he is the best player in the world.
  8. phil80

    phil80 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Computer monitor? the player was practically right next to him and open before he was closed down. C'mon Moishe, you can't seriously defend that only elevation could have seen that play.

    As for Aguero, he is not just a goalscorer, he does a lot more so even if his finishing is off he is still a major asset.
    Regarding messi, you have been the most critical argentinian of his play, and i know you are using the excuse you were waiting for him to fulfill his potential, but that simply just does not fly. Then people can keep saying that about everyone, just waiting until they actually prove themselves, but it is the astute observer that notices the talent and potential early on. It simply means that it took you longer to notice something that was blatantly obvious earlier on. Im not intending to take a slight at you, just explaining that the notion of criticizing a player until it is clearly apparent they have proven themselves defeats the whole purpose, and what becomes the point if for every player the attitude is 'lets just keep waiting before rating them'.
  9. phil80

    phil80 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    I wouldnt suggest using them ever as attacking mids, but to alternate in pushing up in attack is reasonalbe. Either way, it is not the ideal line-up but given what's available then it could be an option when the team needs to take a more defensive approach and possibly in big games. For more attacking I could see something like this working:

    .......Gago....Masch
    Messi.....Aguero.....Tevez
    ............Crespo?
  10. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2005
    Location:
    Central Texas Hill Country
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Country:
    Argentina
  11. phil80

    phil80 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Rewatch that play and give an honest opinion if he you think he saw that player, bias aside. Those plays happen too frequently with him and I have seen his teammates including messi become visibly frustrated. And if he truly does not see the players then that's a whole other issue altogether...he is not looking for the open players. Whichever way it gives the same result, the attack of the play is often halted and becomes too predictable.


    Claiming messi is already an all time great is pushing it, but criticizing his play and disregarding his capacity to become the best player (as you did before) also does not make sense. If you wouldve said he has potential but you would hold off on whether he can be a great, that would have been understandable. Instead you were critical of his play and quick to brand posters fanboys for claiming him an obvious wpoty player. As for Crespo, if you didnt notice i put a question mark over him because i am not convinced of him, but he's an option taking into consideration his attributes when combining with players like messi, tevez, aguero... do you have a better formation in mind?
  12. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2005
    Location:
    Central Texas Hill Country
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Country:
    Argentina
    In my opinion he never had the intention of passing the ball. His mind was made up that he was going for goal and that was "his" primary play. You are using a Boca match to make a point about his NT play. While fundamentally the same role, he is definitely more direct for Boca. Also to suggest that he is not looking for open players is nuts. His modus operandi is finding the open guy. As for Messi looking visibly frustrated, he's shown that same emotion before at Barca, does that mean something? I will say that you are correct, he is too predictable, can any of that be attributed to defenses keying on him? If so where do his teammates factor in that?


    Going through any of the myriad of threads involving Messi, one numpty already has him on that pedestal which at least you agree is pushing it. I have criticized play at times but never any worse than I have of Riquelme as he has been poor up until two recent matches. I really think you should go back and read the entire discussions I've been involved in on Messi and you'll see you are way off.

    I've never questioned his capacity to be great, we even discussed this to a degree via pm's. I did in fact make it clear that I'll hold judgment on his greatness until later. Same stance I've always taken with every Argentine starlet that pops up. Now calling someone a fanboy for claiming Messi was the obvious WPOTY over Ronaldo in Ronaldo's CL/42 goal season is spot-on. This year is the complete opposite which I've posted many times.

    Now for the #9 question. We really don't have an option and I don't know that I'll ever see an Argentine nt coach make the drastic changes some have suggested. The only person I can think of for the future is that kid from Chelsea as he is an in the box striker and from what I recall tall enough to be a nice target. The rest of the forwards we have that can do that are either getting old, out of form or massively out of form. I joked with Palermo but he is a pure 9 and playing regularly. He's not the answer and Cavenaghi and Denis seem to like play a bit more outside the box. The rest of the forwards we have in an abundance. We've got questions that need to be answered.
  13. argentine soccer fan

    argentine soccer fan Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2001
    Location:
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Country:
    Argentina
    Carlitos Tevez had this to say today:

    Translation:
    With the resignation of Roman, the national team loses, there is no doubt that (in this situation) the national team loses.
  14. gmonn

    gmonn Member+

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2005
    You mean Fabio Capello? Like everybody else, he said he has the potential to be an all time great. The most I've seen said of him is that he is already a folk legend who will always be remembered for his play at Barcelona. And I'm the one who said that. It's a fact. It's silly to insult people as overzealous about a player when they've had more foresight than you about how he would develop.

    As for Riquelme, I can see both sides of this argument. It's tough to decide when he can win a game singlehandedly every now and then, but can also be a bit of a brake on the team. I'm looking forward to seeing what Argentina can do without him.
  15. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2005
    Location:
    Central Texas Hill Country
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Country:
    Argentina
    I suppose I do mean Capello amongst others. Again no one has questioned the potential to be an all-time great but having potential and actually being an all-time great are two vastly different things. I also really haven't insulted anyone either but if you want to take it that way then that's on you. As far as anyone having more foresight, the same can be said about anyone that posts on this site.
  16. gmonn

    gmonn Member+

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2005
    I have to agree with you that if anybody actually says Messi is already an all-time great they don't know what they're talking about. Sorry to butt in.
  17. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2005
    Location:
    Central Texas Hill Country
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Country:
    Argentina
    Sadly that banter has been tossed around on these boards and a few less worthy sites as well. As an Argentino I obviously want him to succeed and help bring us the World Cup (but I will gladly take a Copa;)) but I just prefer long term results over a quick fix so to say. Slightly off topic, but I feel it's the advent of the internet and cable TV that has somewhat lowered the standard in what makes greatness in sport.
  18. Leon12

    Leon12 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Location:
    Man of the world
    Country:
    Argentina
    Has anyone said Messi is an all time great? Can't say I have come across that myself, in my opinion he is the best player in the world at the moment, but it is one hell of a leap to claim he is an all time great, that will be a judgement to make at the end of his career. (By the way, did you see the goal he scored against Malaga, so good it made me laugh). :D
  19. gmonn

    gmonn Member+

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2005
    Yes, a "chapeu" (I don't know what you might call it--bringing the ball over the defender's head and back down) over the first defender with his *chest,* beat two more, and finally a finish with his wrong foot. Crazy. He did a chapeu with his foot in another game recently in the smallest space I've ever seen it done.

    EDIT: Okay, forget that, the chest wasn't like I thought from another angle. Still crazy stuff.
  20. argentine soccer fan

    argentine soccer fan Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2001
    Location:
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Country:
    Argentina
    It's too premature to say that. I think he has the attributes to become an all-time great, but so did other hot young players who didn't quite make it.

    He's in a good position, because he won't lack opportunities to prove himself, both with Barcelona and Argentina.

    I'm looking forward to see what he does this next week in the Eliminatorias, and then in Champions league.
  21. Leon12

    Leon12 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Location:
    Man of the world
    Country:
    Argentina
    They showed a replay of the goal in super slow mo and you realised what a great goal it was. The brilliant ball control, at such pace and when he was fouled and then to top it all the great finish with his weaker foot.

    The thing I like about Messi (apart from, obviously, his incredible ability) is that he is a tough so and so. He gets fouled again and again and he just gets up and gets on with it, he's frightened of no one, he has the mental and physical toughness to go with his ability.
  22. BigSoccer Bot

    BigSoccer Bot I am not real.

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    News: "Me sorprendió lo de Riquelme"

    Javier Mascherano, capitán de la Selección Argentina, llegó al país para los partidos por Eliminatorias y se refirió a la decisión de Riquelme.

    More...
  23. Samora

    Samora Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2008
    Location:
    San Diego!
    Country:
    United States
    it was classy of Mascherano not to judge or attack him just respect his decision
  24. Samora

    Samora Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2008
    Location:
    San Diego!
    Country:
    United States
    does anyone know at what time the game starts?
  25. aerez

    aerez Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006

Share This Page