Republican/conservative economic theory proven wrong

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by superdave, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. ratdog

    ratdog Member+

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    Because they don't have elections in East Asia? :confused: OK, Singapore, I can see. Korea until the 1980s, yes. China, definitely. But you can't say that the East Asian model worked only because of dictatorship, especially in Japan.

    I would not call the regimes in post-war South Korea, Singapore or in Taiwan "left". I guess my point is that the East Asian model worked for societies and government systems of all relatively centrist ideologies. As long as they followed the model, they could call themselves whatever they liked. I mean, the ChiComms are "communist" like I'm "Amish".

    We'll never know.


  2. argentine soccer fan

    argentine soccer fan Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, in relative terms the thief was a better human being than the murderer, but they both wiped their ass with their country's constitution.
  3. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

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    right.
  4. dapip

    dapip Member+

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    argentine soccer fan

    Very interesting and educating post. I remember that the government companies in Colombia worked pretty much like you describe and most of them went bankrupt over and over again until most of them were left to die or were privatized, and even in their graves the corrupts found ways to keep milking the cows. Till certain point I can see how a bloated government can lead to this kind of behavior.

    I also see similarities in the black markets that developed around luxury and consumption goods that had to be smuggled into the country but while the market was so big and popular that entire malls were built for the purpose, it really did not include things like basic clothing or food; that was still provided by the local industry and as I said in my posts, certain industries thrived and became very important in the development of the country.

    I can see why Colombia survived the debt crisis of the 1980s but for the same reason the remedies that were applied in Mexico, Brazil and Argentina did not exactly apply to us. So when the country opened its borders the flow of foreign competitors did not only take the place of the industries that the government sold but basically annihilated most of the local industries.

    From the early 1990s till mid 2000s (off course in combination with other issues) the country had several economic crisis and it only found its groove back when mining companies were given letters of marque to exploit the significant mineral reserves of the country. Bottom line, everything is imported and we export raw materials and get a few bucks for it.
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  5. argentine soccer fan

    argentine soccer fan Moderator Staff Member

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    I think if you were evaluating whether to open a factory in China or in Argentina and did a little practical research you would probably buy it. I'm not praising Asian values or culture as better than ours, there are certainly things we can learn from them and things we can teach them. I'm just saying their culture and group idiocyncrasy make a difference in terms of productivity and gives them an advantage in terms of manufacturing and setting up business in general.

    I agree. Indeed this is a statement that is very hard to disagree with. I'm sure we have a huge disagreement as to the specifics, but obviously government has its role and the private sector has its role and they need to work together and compliment each other. The adversarial relationship we have between business and government is counterproductive.

    I've seen privatization in Argentina, the US and other places, and I've seen that in some instances it works great and in other cases it doesn't. For example, privatizing public oil companies and public airlines I believe is a positive thing. Privatizing public phone companies I think was very positive and arguably it had a huge role in the technological revolution. On the other hand, privatizing utility companies has had mixed results at best, and privatizing public transportation has been a disaster in many places.

    So, I'm not one of those people who thinks government sucks at everything. I may believe in limiting the size and scope of government, but I do think for example that trains, light rails and buses are very important to a city's infrastructure and it's best that they be run by the government. They can obviously be complemented by a system of private taxis and shuttles to give us more options, but I believe strongly that access to inexpensive public transportation, while it may be costly to the taxpayers, pays for itself by making a city or an area a much more efficient place to live, work and do business in.
  6. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

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    Billy Bragg is the kind of crap guys in college pretend they like to sleep with faux hippie chicks who will no longer be hippies by graduation. Florence + The Machine is the biggest bag of shit since Ace of Base. Yes, that includes Bloodhound Gang.
  7. dapip

    dapip Member+

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    Back in the time there were plenty of public schools and universities that did not charge any tuition. There was also a robust technical institute ran by government in partnership with companies that was mostly subsidized with payroll taxes. I think that the local schools still do not charge but everyone has now to pay at least a little to get into college depending on family income.





    Only problem being that Walmart erodes the salaries and the tax base and ship the profits to the Walton family. It is kind of difficult for a 50 something former store owner to move to a different job when he has worked in the family business for 30 years… unless he can get a minimum wage job at Walmart… Wooohooooo….

    http://94.23.146.173/ficheros/0f290e7cac0c0514c2990f16dedf7dbd.pdf





    See what was posted above… The profits flow overseas….



    See what was posted above… The profits flow overseas….




    Healthcare used to be subsidized and/or very cheap, before big pharma and the insurance companies got into the business. I agree with you that access is an important factor and if you live in a city probably you are only a short ambulance ride from a hospital, while on the country side it will take a while to get you to a medical center and God forbids that you need more specialized care. The most successful preventive care measures like clean water, vaccination, and preventive screenings are government initiatives and/or publicly subsidized and they are the more important factors in bringing down mortality rates and increasing life expectancy. There is not a lot of profit if your patients do not get sick.





    During the first decade of open trade Colombia’s unemployment went from single digits to as high as 20%. Nowadays it hovers around 10-11% and this is thanks to a very generous counting of under employed and self employed. By some estimates the real unemployment rate can be 25 to 30%.





    Which is more difficult to achieve when you have a big elephant roaming in the rooms where they make the rules. Big multinational companies are known lobbyist every where they invest and the same as in the US, they have more streamlined access to lawmakers.





    Not necessarily. If you have something that the world really needs, bilateral equality is not that important. Besides, Free Trade Agreements do not necessarily improve the exchange conditions with other countries.





    Agreed. However we have seen a lot of focus on Brazil thanks to its proximity and their increasing buy power. Hopefully a more integrated South America will be a good thing for the continent.


    Partly true. As I stated before there used to be a good and cheap education system in Colombia. Privatization and lower public investment means that something that used to be free or cheap for most people is now expensive for almost everyone. I think that the US is suffering similar problems because education is no longer a public investment but a for profit industry.




    In the US most of the economic gains of the last 3 decades have gone to the upper 5% of the population. In Colombia 80% of people earns less than 2 monthly minimal wages, close to half the population lives in poverty and 17% are extremely poor. Sure some boats are seeing better tides than others. But I agree with you that policy is the way to correct this, only that we have been told that wealth will trickle down, soon, any minute now..


    There are no magic balls, agreed, but there is plenty of documentation on how successful societies achieved more balance. Besides 30 years might be just a blink of an eye in historical terms but it is a lifetime for people suffering the consequences of poor governing.


    Or you tax the higher earners a little more and use that money to invest in health, education, and infrastructure.


    Don’t get me wrong. I think that cheap financing is probably the most effective way to incentivize home ownership and I think that’s a desirable thing for the economy to certain extent. Bubbles are foreseeable and usually mean that something was not done right and will go wrong. Cars should be kept relatively expensive but living in the US I understand that they’re also shinny stuff that people loves. Healthcare and college education require more public spending and shouldn’t be a burden for families IMHO.


    I think that genetically we are poorly built for saving. We are not squirrels that can feed (until recently) on stored nuts and we do not have the ability to store energy in our bodies. We grow hungry every few hours and in a way that is also our mind set, we are constantly satisfying short term impulses. Furthermore we are very impressionable by shinny stuff. Hence if we are not properly raised and conscious of our weaknesses, we tend to use our resources to get what we “want”.

    This is why so important to set certain saving and safety policies to cover us all: Chances are that a good percentage of us is not going to have the resources for a rainy day or for old age, no matter how good we have it during our life, hence we will be a burden for society; this needs to be factored in public policies and preempt the harsh realities of life through the wisdom of our elected officials. Problem is that most our elected officials are neither wise nor interested in the common good.
  8. nicephoras

    nicephoras BigSoccer Supporter

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    Without getting into the details of the arguments here, this ignores the fact that the East Asian economies are currently in the industrializing phase of their economic development that's easiest to achieve via the model of development that's being discussed. Even the Soviet Union managed it fairly well until the early 70s - its GDP growth was phenomenal enough in the 50s and 60s to elicit projections of their GDP surpassing that of the United States. However, the next phase of economic development (often involving the transition to a more service based economy) proved much more difficult, which is what we may well see with Asian countries, especially China. Thus far China has avoided any setbacks from the incestuous relationship between state and business, with some estimates of bad loans on the books of Chinese banks (which lend by state diktat) being very high. If that can continue going forward isn't at all clear (and I have my doubts).
    Beyond that, a good part of China's success (as well as that of many other East Asian countries) depends on the ability to produce things for multinational companies far below the cost of producing those same things in more developed countries. That's not a viable strategy for copying. That, of course, does not apply to South Korea, but I'm not sure anyone here would advocate we adopt a completely corporatized economic model, given that the chaebol that dominate Korea make our too big to fail corporations look miniature in scope. That same issue comes up with Japan as well, but while Japan was never on the same model the rest of East Asia is, it benefited massively from free trade and now struggling with the problems its corporatization has created - a nearly 25 year period of a completely static economy.

    In short, the "East Asia Model" is hardly a cure-all for the economy, nor is it clear how exactly we'd apply it internally. There is no doubt that the government does some things better than the private sector (especially if profit isn't the overriding goal), but Chinese economic policy is no panacea.
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  9. superdave

    superdave Member+

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    You're young.
    You suck.
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  10. superdave

    superdave Member+

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    You suck too.
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  11. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

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    And old. That's why I missed Bragg.
  12. American Brummie

    American Brummie Member+

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    I'll take being too young to suck for $600, Alex.
  13. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

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    What little I've heard of and about Billy Bragg has been positive. I generally consider myself pretty informed about music, but I'm stumped as to why anyone would think he sucks.
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  14. Q*bert Jones III

    Q*bert Jones III The People's Poet

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  15. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator Staff Member

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    He doesn't suck. He is sort of an 80's/90's English version of Woody Guthrie....folksy and lefty music. Plus, he loves to banter about football/soccer during his live shows (yeah, I've seen him live at least four or five times over the years).
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  16. superdave

    superdave Member+

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    I, personally, love Bob Dylan. But alot of people can't get past his voice, and I can understand that.

    If someone said some good things about Bragg but said that they just couldn't get past his voice, I could see that. But to just say he sucks?
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  17. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

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    Well, he seems like a nice enough guy; but i find his music stiff and inelegant. Preachy rather than persuasive...
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  18. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

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    How much Billy Bragg have you heard? I already said it's a phase college guys go through to pick up faux hippie chicks. Not much more. If you are looking for a better musical version of that genre I would suggest the far more talented Robyn Hitchcock. Billy Bragg is dull nonsense that your sophomore college teacher in the 90s thought was great.

    Florence + The Machine? How can anyone like this?
  19. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

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    Hell, that sounds like fun listening, on both counts. I don't know that I'm a true folk fan, but I've been a fan of acoustic guitar-driven music for years, and I don't mind a political message that echoes my own to some degree.

    I think wee-putt is hung up on the message, if what Yos is saying fits most of his music.

    Sally Struthers preachy or early U2 preachy? The former grates, but the latter was one of the greatest bands ever.
  20. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

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    I find U2, particularly Joshua Tree on, to be persuasive and elegant, not preachy.
  21. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

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    You lay off Sally now.
  22. nicephoras

    nicephoras BigSoccer Supporter

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    At this point it's hard to determine what would constitute "early U2" - I've always thought of Joshua Tree as part of their "middle period", which had their best work and ended with Achtung Baby (well, technically with the song from that awful Batman movie soundtrack which was the last pre-Zooropa music they made). Of course, I now realize that "middle period" ended 20 years ago..........
  23. superdave

    superdave Member+

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    I refute you thusly.


    I'm sorry, but pop music doesn't get more elegant than that.
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  24. fatbastard

    fatbastard Member+

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    emmet swimming does a great version of that song
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  25. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

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    Eh just give me The Beatles.
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