I think people are really overreacting to Yaya bullying Scholes last week. There's a real case for Scholes joining Vidic as the lone top tier player on the team, when you consider that Messi and Ronaldo are leagues ahead of Rooney, while the best CM's (Xavi, Pirlo, Alonso, Busquets, Iniesta, Schweinsteiger) are better than current Scholes, but not leagues ahead. At worst, Scholes is, under Drae's system, an A-, at the level of a Nani or Carrick.
S: Rio, Ronaldo, Scholes, VDS, Rooney, Tevez A: Carrick, Evra, Wes, Vidic B: Nani, Anderson, Park, Giggs, Hargreaves(RB), Fletcher C: O'Shea Not gonna add injured or those who played very few games.
S: Rio, Ronaldo, Rooney A: Carrick, Evra, Scholes, Tevez, VDS, Vidic B: Nani, Anderson, Park, Giggs, Hargreaves(RB), Fletcher, Wes C: O'Shea
Agreed with everything except that: -I'd say Evra was S class back then. Evra was clearly a top 2 or 3 left back in world football, and probably #1, and a top 4 or 5 fullback overall, ranking somewhere between 1st and 6th along with Ashley Cole, Sergio Ramos, Lahm, Dani Alves and Maicon. -Tevez was inconsistent and had shocking periods of finishing, He wasn't the brilliant player he's been at Citeh. A class, sure. But not S. -This is more a function of only having 4 tiers, but it looks odd to see Vidic not a level above Carrick and Wes Brown. He did have a fine, season, though. I also preferred Hargreaves to Brown as an RB. The point, though is clear. We had 6-7 world class players and got great season from Wes Brown, Vidic and Carrick, all of whom definitely cracked the top 10 at their specific position (so top 20 for CB's, Carrick as a top 10 DM and Brown as a top 10 RB). The final spot could be deployed (With a top 2 or 3 FB/CM Flamini/O'Shea utility guy in Hargreaves) based on strategy, but: A: Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldo M: Scholes, Carrick D: Evra, Vidic, Rio, Brown was a hell of a core that year. Currently, with Welbeck, Cleverley, Jones and Smalling probably at least a year away from becoming even A class, I'd bet on the following next season: S: Rooney, Vidic Provoke board arguments of "S or A Class?": De Gea, Nani A: Scholes (if he doesn't retire, and only playing once a week), Maybe Valencia gets hot for 3 months instead of 2, Maybe one young guy or high potential player who could make a leap after settling (Anderson, Ashley Young, Rafael). So, we're looking at 2 world class players (CB, Striker) and great seasons at GK, RW, the half of games Scholes plays and some position where a young-ish guy steps up. That's 2 top tier and 3.5 2nd tier guys, versus 6.5 and 3.5 2nd tier. It's possible 3-4 young players will become world class talents, but that's asking a lot. We should buy at least 2 players we think can be S class. Depth is solid right now, we need top end talent.
The only reason I didn't put Evra in 'S' was because his end product in the final third was not world class even during his very best time at the club. No doubt he was one of the best LB's in the world, and arguably 1st with Cole, but that's more to do with the dearth of quality LB's in the game for some years now. re. Tevez. It was the season after this one that he stunk up the place. Although he was hit and miss in this season, his threat as part of that trio provided a constant distraction for the opposition. I did weigh up putting him in A, but can't help but feel that does him a disservice as one of the key cogs in the best attack in Europe. Vidic had a very, very good season, but that was also Carrick's best here. I do think 'A's description fits both of them to a tee. I've little doubt in my mind that if we could've kept that team together and added one elite CM, that it'd have been us and Barca sharing all the cups up to the here and now with both being regarded as all-time teams. As it is, we see what happened to them.. and then, what has happened to us. If we really want to be at the top of the game again then the S and A classes will have to be bolstered to the rafters, otherwise, we'll remain an underdog in Europe whilst having a solid go at the league against the side City will soon become, which ironically.. or annoyingly, will be full of the classes we used to be associated with.
DS, Evra never had end product, true, but he was just so great in big games, where his ball carrying, winning and link play helped us massively in big, tough games, and the attacking pressure and thrust he offered in easier "break down the other team" games more than made up for his poor crossing and final third play in general, for me. At this prime, I thought he was better than Cole, but his prime was shorter. He really put his stamp on games in a way that for me, was only exceeded by Dani Alves's best 2 or 3 years and Maicon's season in the treble year in the post-Cafu/Roberto Carlos (an argument for another time, that player) fullback era. Evra didn't let play come to him, he imposed his will on his segment of the pitch, and with Scholes and Carrick being passers who weren't especially mobile, his pace and desire were a perfect stylistic fit. S class for me in that season. Tevez was very good that year, but when I think of how terrifying he was in that first FA Cup battle for City, where every time he touched it you feared it would be a goal, I remember that his play at United was never at that class. For City, early in his time there, he looked lethal the way Falcao or Cavani or Van Persie have looked this year, where a half chance for most is a full chance for them. That's an S class striker. At United, he was 3rd Banana to Rooney and Ronaldo, narrowly less effective than the former and significantly less so than the latter, for me. Carrick, I'll concede. He really was very, very good that year. I think I might have been guilty of bringing in feelings from the Barcelona finals. As for the long-term prospects of the 07-08 squad if they had been kept together, I think they'd have still probably won a bit less than Barcelona, since, like the current Madrid side, a team that doesn't completely dominate possession is always going to have a higher variance in games than one that pegs the other team back. But we could have won one of the CL finals we lost to Barcelona (and if Fergie had done better, I think we should well have won one) and definitely that title lost to Chelsea by a point. Another top CM, as you said, to complement Carrick + Scholes, and a top right back would have made that team close to flawless, and with an emerging Nani, Hargreaves and Wes Brown providing different skills as squaddies, we'd have been pretty damn good. Re: Citeh, S Class: Aguero, Silva, Kompany, Toure (considering the lack of dominant CM's) A Class: Hart (Poor passer, otherwise S class), Tevez/Balotelli (whoever is around), Dzeko, De Jong, Zabaleta/Richards (as a platoon), Nasri (only for his ball retention) With Clichy, Barry and Lescott having had A- class seasons this year but not great bets to continue on in that vein, especially Gaz Barry. The defenders have a chance, since Clichy is consistently inconsistent and Lescott might have hit a new level this year (or was carried by Kompany). So, I'd expect S class play from 4 spots on their team and A class play from 5.5 guys (only one of the strikers playing at once so let's give them a half point). However, they'll probably buy an attacker who can give them an A class season right away and an S once they adjust to the Prem (Hazard) and some brilliant S class defender like Thiago Silva. Ugh. We really do need those 2 S class front 6 players, and even then, 3 of the young defenders will have to have a class years to join Vidic.
I agree with most of that. I'd have Rooney and Tevez in A for that season myself. They were just not quite at the level, or as consistent as Ronaldo. Regardless, a marked gap between now and then.
S Rooney, Nani A Vidic, De Gea, Carrick, Rio, Valencia, B Scholes, Rafael, Berba, Young, Evra, Cleverley, Pogba, Smalling, Evans, Welbeck C Jones, Fabio, Hernandez, Lindegaard, Giggs, Anderson, Park D Owen., Petrucci, Borrowed Syed's lineup style. Scholes/Giggs don't have the legs anymore. Newbie players have to play to make it on the list.
Valid points on 07-08, fella Here's my '98-'99: SS (yes, I just made an extra grade): Schmeichel, Keane, Yorke* S: Giggs(Europe), Beckham, Scholes, Stam, A: Cole, Irwin, G Neville, Sheringham, B: Johnsen, Solsjkaer, Butt, Brown, Berg C: May, Blomqvist, Jordi, van der Gouw, P Neville * one season of god mode for Yorke. Even one more like it, and he'd have been a worthy recipient of the Balon d'ior. SS also represents certified living legends who were AT's without question whilst in the throes of their career. If you wanna disregard the new class, then just shuffle every group down a grade, I guess.
Well... name another support striker... not a false #9.. who has the amount of goals Rooney has this season in world football I think he has had a very poor season by his standard with his all-round game being average (for him) but in terms of results his end product, in a terrible season relative to his ability, has been exemplary. They are in S-Class sides... I think that goes with the territory. I also think La Liga skews output considerably. Also, I think S can be considered for bottom level output as well as top - this is Rooney in a poor, poor season... this, essentially, is his bottom level and it's a ridiculous output if that is indeed the case. As we've talked about previously, I believe Rooney is one of very few in this squad whose quality and overall level will go up and meet the bar of what comes in.
I agree with all of that. He definitely could play at an S level, with the right setup. But for me, he is currently playing at an A class level.
In relation to what he can do within his own sphere, sure. But 34 goals from support striker position.. in a middling team no less, is not something that can be taken away from him even if he can do far better in terms of overall performance. Those are S numbers whichever way it's sliced.
oh also i think Di Natale fits the bill of support striker with similar numbers. wouldn't call him or his results S-Class either
What do you know about AdN? Homeboy is the truth. He does it with a shitter team too. Also, that was hyperbole and just to piss some people off. AdN is nice tho, and severely underrated.
and considering he is 34 and still doing it is quite impressive. Not quite sure he will, but Di Natale should be the main man for them at the Euros
Thing is, AdN has been nice for almost a decade now without really being noticed. He's quietly carved out a really good career. I'll be sad to see him go when he does. He's full of guile.
