Race as it relates to soccer, football in the US and around the world

I posted this in another thread about a book on why Blacks don't play soccer in the US. As it may have not been the right place for the discussion and was told that another thread may have been appropriate I wanted to start a new thread in which a disscusion could be started below is the post that I oringinal posted.


I haven't read the full thread or don't know if these points were picked up or pointed out but it's something that I was thinking about the other day as it relates to race in the world.

I wanted to discuss these sterotypes that seem to come up in the world and seem to be prevalent on these boards as it pertains to black or african players you see alot of post of said player is lazy, doesn't work for the team, fast or athletic, never has I seen a post of said african or black usa player technique is amazing he has a great football brain or he see's the game in cerebral light. Why?

In business as in the world I deal with these issues as african american man, as if to say I'm talented or lucky not that I worked hard or payed my dues. Or if in business or sport I know that I'm good at something it's I or said player is arrongant or cocky and others want bring you down a peg.

I see no difference in the way a player like Mario Balotelli carries himself compared to a Cristino Ronaldo or Leo Messi but opinions of those players are much more favorable in the media and by fans is it race or am I imagining this.

I would like a have a frank discussion in this football soccer forum no racist comments please just real talk on the issue and if as humans we may be able get past these little sterotypes one day so maybe my kids can play the game and be thought of as the smartest guy on the pitch not just the the luckiest or most athletic.

I do. Messi carries himself with far more humility.

I believe that humility or being humble has a lot to do with the perception of being out going and having a big personailty. I see Leo walk around on and off the pitch like he know's he's the best thing going. The way Michael Jordan use to walk around and rightfully so because they are and was. I think Mario has the same air about him but he's just alot more vocal about it.IMHO

I wanted to bring this discussion to this forum because I want to talk about soccer in the US it's fans and how they percieve players.

Case in point the Jozy is lazy debate but Brian Mcbride is the hardest working forward of all time.

Well seen Jozy do yeomans work hard graft and get no praise for it and BMB look like he took a day off no pundits calling him lazy for it. I just think these sterotypes from US fans as well as is this just black athelete around the world that get's this type of critisism should be talked about.

Few blacks play soccer because the majority of black players that play sports from Highschool to College to the Pros grow up playing these sports. Many of these players grow up in poverty and basketball is a fairly cheep sport to play and Football normally provides the equipment.

But, a huge factor is coaching. Everyone and their mother knows Football but schools don't hire soccer coaches who are not teachers at that school also. Nobody knows about soccer and we don't have a Michael Jordan of soccer for these kids to look up to to bring in better coaches. This player doesn't even have to be black but we can't create the player without the coaches and the scouts.

If the inner city sports clubs added soccer, we'd see changes in the next few decades.

When people believe stereotypes - even if it's not a conscious belief - than any actions by people that conform to that belief will be seen as evidence that the stereotype is true.

Things that don't conform will be overlooked.

There are people in some areas of the larger cities trying to get inner city youth interested in the sport. It's just going to take time for the average black kid to see soccer as something they could be interested in, and possibly excel at.

Everyone of my friends call basketball "their sport" , so it's going to be hard to move away from that idea.

Look at how baseball has talked about attempting to get more black kids involved in that sport, who are being replaced by Hispanic kids.

As far as stereotyping a black player as lazy, people used to claim that about every black player in every sport. I'm not sure in soccer, it is used in that same negative fashion, though.

When I was growing up, after the influx of English style coaching, largely due to NASL popularity, a lot of coaches considered Hispanic kids to be ball hogs, because they held the ball too long. That idea is going away.

Soccer is growing, but, it's going to take time to become a part of Americana.

We are a country made up of immigrants. When they were living else where most of them played soccer and loved soccer.

When they came here they knew to get by here to find work here they had to Americanize themselves in our culture. So they learned English, they changed their names to a less ethnic name like from Braun to Brown or from Guillermo to Williams in a lot of cases and tried to get into what they thought were american sports and other things American.

If they were stubborn they kept their name and the game they loved alive even here in America. They formed club teams, they formed leagues and they made fields to play on.

A lot of those stubborn people are in the United States soccer Hall of fame today.

Ballotelli doesn't produce enough to act the way he does. He is a skill player, but need to more focus to trully display his skill.
Which black player follow under the description that were not recognized?
Thierry Henry is talked like a very skilled smart player. Also Ronaldinho.

The Brazilian and other South American players have gotten the description that you have been asking about. But because they are south American, I guess people don't notice that they are also black.

I think, you are focusing too much in African and US black players. Normally players from those areas tend to have more speed and strength than true skill with the ball. African players are improvingly rapidly in the skill section, still need to get smarter in the pitch, but that is a sympton of coaching and organization. Kevin Prince Boateng is an example of a player that seems much better in the field, and in understanding the game after getting a coach that could help him see the field better. He is a beast on the pitch now.

You won't find many players that are smart on the pitch that were coach in the US system. Even Donovan is not that great of a field manager. That is why the US is much better in a direct attacking style.

Many of these smart players are false 9's or 10's. Or extremely creative 8's. The majority of the more famous ones are Spanish, so you eliminate the chances of having a lot of black players being mentioned.

Actually, I've always thought DaMarcus Beasley has an exceptional soccer mind, and I've said it before. There's really no other explanation for the success he's had despite his physical and technical limitations. He's undersized, not as fast as he used to be, and extremely left-footed, and his touch is mediocre by professional standards, but he contributes to teams by constantly managing to be in the right place at the right time.

While I agree with the point you made directly before the bolder part, I disagree with the bolder part. Anyone who watched him play with Everton this time saw his inner field general. He commanded the game and used his brain, not his speed to aid his team in scoring, which resulted in him assisting in almost every other goal scored during his time there.

Thanks for starting this topic; it's a very interesting subject. I think there are a couple of widely-held myths or stereotypes about blacks in any sport, but I see it in soccer as well. A lot of these stream from very old racist beliefs that have long been held here in the US (can't speak for Europe and elsewhere).

One of the primary racist beliefs rests on the reverse-racist belief that blacks are naturally athletic or naturally talented in sports. This may seem complimentary, but it undermines the tremendous amount of hard work black athletes (like any other athlete) does to perform at the top level. This gives rise to the belief that black athletes are "gifted but lazy", coasting by on natural raw talent instead of working hard like their white teammates.

The second racist conceit is that blacks excel in sports or positions that require athleticism but not brainpower or tactical intellect. And since blacks were banned from such sports and positions for years, it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. This belief goes back as far as Jack Johnson, the first black heavyweight boxer from around the turn of the century, who was thought to simply over-power his opponents with brute force, when in truth he was a very intelligent and tactical fighter. For decades in America there have been those who claim that blacks could not be good quarterbacks or dominate in sports that didn't require great physical athleticism (which was why Tiger Woods was seen as so threatening--it shows how prevalent the idea still is). For the same reasons, people also used to believe that blacks could not be coaches.

Obviously, both myths have been disproven by players in several sports, including soccer yet this is still a widely held belief. It seems like black and African players are commonly underrated, although this is changing. One example I can think of is how undervalued (and underpaid) Claude Makelele was at Madrid.

Similar attitudes exist outside the USA, where black players were not ever banned from sports.

Off an a tangent, there is also the mystery of why Indian/Pakistani immigrants in the UK (the biggest minority) have so little representation in professional sports. The stereotype there is that they are much more studious and business orientated, and don't go for football as a career, but even that's seldom presented as more than part of the answer.

Black players (especially Africans and South Americans, not so much players from North America) are generally seen as having an almost childlike mind, still. Spectacular players, but not to be trusted, and not capable of understanding and/or following rules, because of some mysterious "African mindset". Any African team will be described as technically gifted, but undisciplined and tactically weak (no matter if it's true or not).

Also: Germany coach Joachim Löw on the genetics of African players (not worth translating, he's just repeating how strong and technically gifted they are, due to their African genes):
http://www.rp-online.de/sport/fussball-wm/alles-zum-dfb-team/loew-grosser-respekt-vor-serbien-1.1628059

In Germany there weren't many blacks in sports before the 1980s - though I'm pretty sure they were banned from sports at least under the Nazis anyway (only "Aryans" were allowed to participate in sports, which of course was applied mainly to banning Jews. Since it was somewhat of a non-factor in domestic sports I'm not aware of anything mentioning black athletes specifically).

Choice of sports? A quick look through Wikipedia finds players of South Asian descent easily overrepresented (compared to the general population) in English first-class cricket clubs.

Not so sure about this. Exhibit A: DaMarcus Beasley and Freddy Adu. (Granted, Beasley was fast before his injuries, but Adu's undersized and has never been faster than the average MLS player.) I don't think you can even lump all of Africa into one race. East Africa has, for all its dominance of endurance sports, been notably unsuccessful at sports that emphasize strength or explosive acceleration.

Also, while I don't dismiss the role of genes entirely, I don't think you really see significant differences until you approach the limits of human performance. Soccer players aren't anywhere near the limits for any particular aspect of athleticism because they have to be all-around athletes. Training probably matters a lot more more. It may well be that black soccer players are faster not because of genes but because of the stereotype that they are faster, which leads youth coaches to play them in positions that emphasize speed more.

Altidore's youth coach in Florida, an Austrian, complained about his work ethic in training. So did his British coach Ian Dowie when he was at Hull. These complaints also dogged him when he was in Spain and, more recently, in Holland.

So how is it exactly that this is a U.S. perception?

Most are players from those countries, rather than being people who grew up in England.

English players of Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi origin probably are over-represented too, but it's not as if Asian kids don't like and play football as well.

There is definitely a genetic component. You're also right to recognize that Africa's a big place, with a lots of genetically and culturally diverse peoples.

It's true that blacks who can trace their heritage to West African are more likely to find they're biologically predisposed to have "fast-twitch" muscle fibers. These muscle fibers assist with quick, explosive motions and are found in top sprinters. This is how Jamaicans and African-Americans dominate in sprinting--most have West African ancestry.

By contrast, East African endurance may be as simple as training at high altitudes and other conditioning.

Oh dear. Opinions of, say, Michael Essien are also much more favorable in the media than Balotelli. I wonder why...

in this particular case, you are imagining this...

1. Mario Balotelli is not any where near Messi or Ronaldo's level...yet he thinks he is and even says so tot he press.

in addition,

2. Messi and Ronaldo don't throw darts at other people.

3. Messi and Ronaldo don't set fireworks off in their homes.

4. Messi and Ronaldo don't crash their Bently's and then just leave them there.

5. Messi and Ronaldo don't crash press conferences.

6. Messi and Ronaldo don't put on the jersey of their own club's rivals out of respect to their fans.

7. Messi in Ronaldo would be welcomed by any other manager anywhere, Balotelli, no way, and it has nothing to do with the color of his skin.

I just want to say thanks to everyone who brought something to this discussion. I just think that the media and society want there black athlete to be aw shucks head down don't say to much or look any differently than anyone else in their uniform or you a bad guy.

That is just one example of how I think the black athlete is perceived. I believe that other nationalities just don't get that type of treatment.

Balotelli is just a petulant, young tw*t. An egotists on the level of Ibrahimovic. Nothing to do with race, they all provide their share of headcases.

There's not too many white US players you could describe like that either.