PL-era Sheep Draft - Main Thread

Discussion in 'Manchester United' started by cr7torossi, Jun 2, 2012.

  1. Stud83

    Stud83 Member+

    Jun 1, 2005

    I had Umar 14th, so I'll comment.
    I actually agree on all of the above points. Yet, there were several things, which I absolutely hated about his team.


    - Sorensen is bottom 3 GK in the draft.
    - I love Bruce and McGrath, but by '93 their combined age was 67. Maybe I would've been OK if at least one of them peaked after '93, but having 2 old guys as CDs was just not good. Plus, Bale is just not a good defender.

    So, very low rated GK and defense + very highly rated midfield + decent attack = 14th place
     
  2. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    i wanted the stay at home cb to protect the space left by babayaro who goes forward more than lauren
     
  3. Republic of Mancunia

    Aug 24, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Just to add, it's kind of like recent United in some ways. Evra getting caught out upfield which left Vidic exposed in the LCB area. That's why Ferguson played around with swapping Ferdinand and Vidic over in recent times due to Rio's great positional sense. Ferdinand is probably still the quicker of the two as well. I see some parallels there.
     
  4. Republic of Mancunia

    Aug 24, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Well what I can I say? I'd have preferred speed there to cover,(instructing Lucio not to take too many risks with the ball) or someone absolutely top drawer posititonally. Sorry. :( I can see your reasoning but I'd have gone the other way.

    Lucio coming over to the LB area if the need arises with the pace to close down attacks down your left, Bould still nicely positioned in the middle to head the cross away should it come in anyway, Lauren, quite athelitc and strong for a full back tucking in and challenging aerial balls at the far post. I'd quite like that setup.
     
    thebigman repped this.
  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Ah I see yeah, Kinkladze could have played in behind Gullit or Hasselbaink as a free role player I guess. From memory, I'm not sure if there were CM's I could have paired with Baresi although actually I could have paired Roberto Baggio leaving myself to get a centre mid perhaps when I picked up Kinkladze. Baggio would not be so verstile as Laudrup but if I'd stuck to more of a 4-4-2 I suppose he'd have been a great partner for Gullit in attack (even though neither would have been seen as an out-and-out striker - the Gullit/Mancini partnership at Sampdoria would suggest Baggio and Gullit would work I think). Or I could have maybe got in and got Weah before Excape Goat, leaving myself to get an own goal scoring centre mid if there was a viable one instead of Hasselbaink. I did have it in mind to draft Laudrup and saw it as a good chance to pickup him and Baresi, though admitedly I was surprised Baggio could be taken by the Good Sheep XI and not banned or at least drafted. I'd have to have a think about possible midfielders instead of Kinkladze in that round - I think Lars Bohinen might have been available if I'm not mistaken (or was it a different round?) and he could be described as a CM rather than AM and would link up with Stone again as at Forest, but I don't think he's exactly what you were suggesting (although he was a very very good passer so you'd have appreciated that if you'd seen enough of him at Forest for example, judging by the Valero comments; he also had great ball skills). Other than being more creative oriented (he did track back and could win tackles at times though) I think I'd expect him to not greatly positively influence the votes in my favour though (less than I feel he'd influence my own rating of my team; maybe like Valero for you in that respect).

    From what I do know of Valero I did think he'd keep good possesion with Alonso, but probably inevitably it might have taken a great impression at West Brom to make me value him a lot higher. I understand what you were saying about consistent vs creative passes (probably I'd see a couple of those you mentioned such as Carrick and Gascoigne above say Ballack or probably Vieira as passers overall but obviously keeping consistent possession is a great asset). Sometimes it depends on the attributes of a player overall - eg Brian Laudrup would never play like Xavi because rotating possession quickly when he got the ball most times would negate his running with the ball etc - I don't see him as the same quality of passer with the same vision as Xavi all things considered though just to clarify although I think his brother Michael was at least as good in that category probably.
     
  6. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Those 4 players have basically nothing in common.
     
  7. Breitner'sWig

    Breitner'sWig Member

    Apr 24, 2012
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    My rankings:
    1. schwuppe - really, really hard to put anything between the top third or even top half of the lineups, but basically seduced by Totti and Batistuta at the front of a very solid lineup. Good midfield (when at their peaks anyway), defence isn't household names but that centre back pairing is actually quite strong. If Glen Johnson had played the Euros in his usual manner I don't think you would have got this first place though!
    2. Boban - I like your style, getting Milanese through the middle, good chemistry. Inzaghi is not everyone's first choice but it should suit you well here. Midfield is not quite the strongest combination but still good. I'm definitely one of those for who the jury is still out on Santon. Full backs are the problem in this draft I reckon.
    3. RoM(Cevno) - This is a quality defence, especially GK and CBs. Midfield is pretty decent and the front two as well. Trouble is, Mancini had an issue post 92 with winning things, including international caps, and Kluivert peaked so frustratingly early, he's obviously good enough for this team from his Ajax and Barca years but it still grates.
    4. PDG - Was in two minds about this for a while (with the arrows again!) and I would have made a different choice myself by dropping Stone and having an experienced Gullit deeper in the midfield. But this team is still packed with class with Gullit, Baresi, Pires and Laudrup. People forget how good Babbel was as well. Just a strain on the centre midfield that keeps this team from excelling.
    5. karloski - Had this marked low from the start because of three at the back, but that strong spine of midfield and attack swayed me. Romario, Bergkamp, M. Laudrup is easily as good as Benni/SyedZada's attack, Emerson is solid further back and I love Poyet driving the link up with Laudrup, Juninho etc. Obviously Vucevic is a spare wheel and you can't quite pull off having those three for a back line. If you could have swapped Vucevic with a decent left back, that would make all the difference.
    6. Audere - Solid team throughout and hard to pick holes in. Maybe Matteo is no superman but I guess it's relying on Fowler to score compared to the likes of Romario, Batistuta and Crespo that sees this slip only slightly. I've come to realise over time that I always considered Hendry a good player because he is scary rather than...well...good.
    7. Benni - Obviously a Hollywood front line with Messi and Ronaldinho winning the votes. Two of the best picks in the draft. I like Silva too and Speed, but Wilshere is still in the unclear category (along with Kyle Walker I admit). You could have used a better ball winner in the centre. Watson is likeable but a bit average plus I still wouldn't trust Coloccini with defending a brick wall from a collective noun of moths because I've seen his Titus moments. In honesty I had to wiki Diego Lopez but any keeper getting in the Spain squad these last few years must be talented.
    8. nicephoras - Makings of a side in contention but as lanman said, Lovenkrands is always going to stick out. Rio-Masch-Zidane-Drogba is a strong spine but a wildcard like Robinho isn't going to work quite as well for me, given there are so many consistently quality players in every team in the draft. Rest of the side is reasonably solid if not spectacular and quite well balanced for a 4-3-3 at least.
    9. Excape Goat - not much wrong with this either, good back four though I never really like Boswinga and that could become a problem with no other width than the full backs. Barry and Ince are fairly solid which translates as ok at this level. Veron's arrows looks like he is making up for something and then Okocha, as much as I love him, could almost be another Robinho issue. Phillips and Weah: sounds ridiculous said out loud but I can't overly fault it.
    10. johno/kyle - Obviously starting with a deficit in Lundekvam but the rest of the defence is reasonable enough. Both full backs were losing it soon after 92-93 but I think you get away with it. So strong going forward through the middle but I have to object to Laurent Robert. No matter how many free kicks and long rangers are worthy of saving on my hard drive, he was a real lazy shit and a lousy teammate. He's not good enough to get away with that in this arena and I'm not sure Kaka can handle it.
    11. salama - formation confused me at first (especially thinking Gilberto=G.Silva - was he ever any good anyway? Caps but dodgy club career...), looks like you're needing to compensate with 2 deep midfielders for lack of wide cover. It's a good side with 5 or 6 real quality players but it looks like Hagi and C.Ronaldo have it all to do going forward. I don't know a lot about Valero but his time at WBA was fairly forgettable and I know he got relegated again since. Bit of a mystery having not seen him.
    12. JamesA - I thought you had it made at the back with the greatest keeper available and a phenomenal back four. But Irwin pops up on the right? I just thought if you don't have wingers don't try to make them out of something else. Rest of the team is decent and would have been hard to beat at least. I'm not sure how you would have shaped your midfield and I guess it would have relied on Fabregas a lot to provide the front two with something.
    13. thebigman - Great front two (though wouldn't start Henry so wide) and gradually declines the further back you go. Strong and well balanced central midfield but Babayaro and Bosnich stick out as liabilities and not sure the rest of the back four is quite up to par for the draft.
    14. umar - Half a winning team here. Middle three look reasonable together, though everyone has different opinions on Lucas. Wingers great, back four quite good except Sorensen could be a liability and I accept what you say about Bielsa's system but aren't the fullbacks and wingers going to be doing the same job? And I never understand this thing with fullbacks not doing any defending, so they're in a back four on paper but in reality its a back two with some midfield protection and you simply have to dominate like barca to win. Either way, I've seen Bale attempt it in person and I was embarrassed for him.
    15. stud83 - Didn't quite do it for me. Agbonlahor a bit sub standard for the draft, even Tugay perhaps. Valencia at RWB and Richard Dunne as central of three CB's concern me - the back three are a little slow overall. Doesn't help because I think you could get opened up on the flanks. Stam, Keane and Rivaldo add the real mix of quality you need, but not enough to make it work.
    16. iDiveStevieG - I realise I should have written this team off altogether as no tactics or rankings given, but I had already looked through anyway. Sun Jihai, as much as I love him was a weak point in a good defence. Presuming Hoilett is dropped the rest looks good enough for midtable but penalised him a bit for literal lack of direction i.e. absent manager.
    17. Holy Joe - Really unlucky to end up with Batty at left back after round 10. Especially when considering you have two viable left backs elsewhere. I block a few myself as I thought other teams needed one as well. Parlour in a central position plus Di Matteo as DM isn't quite the best, shame because the rest of the team is quite good. In retrospect I should have just lumped Stevie G at the bottom, so apologies for that.
     
    schwuppe and benni... repped this.
  8. johno

    johno Member+

    Jul 15, 2003
    in the wind
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Claus is a pretty good defender. He's never going to be a game winner, but he was solid. Ultimately though, I agree. He's the weakpoint of the defence. But the Robert criticism is a bit confusing. If you'd gone over my tactics you'd see that his responsibilities were basically those of a LWF. He was supposed to press occasionally, but be the outlet for counter attacks and offer support to Klinsmann.

    ----

    I'm the biggest critic of Kaka following his fall, but based on the criteria for this draft, he'd be fantastic in our imaginary competition, on par with any trequartista selected. I also think Klinsmann is underrated, but I'd think that regardless as he's one of my favorite players. My first boyhood hero on the pitch.
     
  9. Poborsky

    Poborsky Member

    Salama said:
    I'd have those guys a level above Carrick, Lampard, Tugay and Gascoigne.​
    Yeah. I pretty much agree. I just meant they were around the same passing level for me, with Lampard and Gascoigne more likely to make the final killer through ball but Tugay and Carrick being more consistent. I just meant they were around the same tier, for me, of passing midfielders in the draft.
     
  10. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Um......Lampard has basically run Chelsea's attack for the past decade. Comparing him to Carrick or Tugay is really bizarre.
     
  11. SyedZada

    SyedZada Member+

    May 14, 2008
    Santa Clara
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Carrick has run Man Utd midfield for years winning much more with nothing partners, bizzare to compare him to an luxury am with two midfielders covering, we could play this all day.:p
     
  12. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    I'm not really going to have a Lampard discussion on the ManUtd forums, so I'll end by suggesting comparing him to Carrick or Tugay is patently ludicrous.
     
  13. SyedZada

    SyedZada Member+

    May 14, 2008
    Santa Clara
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    And I rate him pretty highly, check last season I still rated him the best AM in the league due to output but wont take shots on Carrick at all, our most successful 5 years and he has been our main and only midfielder, Liverpool signing Sahin on loan and everybody hails them for being stronger why does our midfield not get the credit for all the success if it is such a factor and why does MC not got any credit for being our DM in a 442 for all this time.
     
  14. cr7torossi

    cr7torossi Member+

    May 10, 2007
    Thing is both Lampard and Carrick have been fantastic in their individual roles.

    But Salama wasn't comparing Valero's quality compared to those two (or at least I hope not) but just the range of his passing.
     
  15. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    I understand that - and suggesting Lampard and Tugay have a similar range of passing is just as crazy.

    Anyway, really, last post on the subject. Good luck integrating RvP :D
     
  16. cr7torossi

    cr7torossi Member+

    May 10, 2007
    Agreed. Bit of a weird comparison involving AMs, retainers and playmakers that.

    Integrating RvP is easy, keeping him fit is a different matter.
     
  17. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    As per my discussion with Jitty and johno, I don't think the latter is even possible. (Jitty's suggestion that you can get 40 games a year out of RVP for the next 3 years had me rolling on the ground in tears.) The first may not be as easy as you think - Wenger products don't travel well.
     
  18. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    hopefully wengers black magic ankle spell breaks
     
  19. cr7torossi

    cr7torossi Member+

    May 10, 2007
    Think mediocre players like Hleb and Flamini have perpetuated that myth.

    All the top players that have left have done fairly well - Henry, Vieira, Fabregas, even Nasri to an extent.
     
  20. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    None of them matched their Arsenal form, though Nasri wasn't all that great to begin with. They didn't necessarily turn into pumpkins (well, only some of them), but only Ashley Cole has played as well at his new club since leaving Arsenal. Whatever else we may say about Arsene, he generally sells at a player's peak value.
     
  21. johno

    johno Member+

    Jul 15, 2003
    in the wind
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    I'm shocked that the player who went to Chelsea has performed the best. Shocked.
     
  22. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    If you prefer, I'm perfectly happy to say that Ashley Cole has also played worse at Chelsea than he did at Arsenal. That would really impact my point!
     
  23. johno

    johno Member+

    Jul 15, 2003
    in the wind
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Irrelevant. That statement was directed toward your credibility or lack thereof in general, not your point.


    Just so you know, Cole had the longest sustained period of being far below his best than any of the players listed there even though he left near his peak.
     
  24. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    You accusing me of lack of credibility is amusing, but not really substantiated. Who has departed Arsenal and played better at their destination? My contention should be simple enough to easily disprove, surely.
    The notion that I'm a blind Chelsea homer is funny though, especially coming from you. Not that it's a productive conversation.

    Even if that made sense, it wouldn't be relevant.
     
  25. johno

    johno Member+

    Jul 15, 2003
    in the wind
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    With regard to praise/respect for opposition players (in this case Chelsea) I'm sure I've been far more giving than you have. My record on Mikel, MacEasy and Lamps is there to be examined. I don't think you are a blind homer. I think you are a half blind homer.

    The Ashley Cole point stands because I think given a couple years, both players who recently left in their primes or near them, will have had better careers post-Arsenal than Cole has had. Yes, I'm talking about Nasri and Fabregas.
     

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