Sorry, I'm new to the thread, but a comment by Lamprey two months ago about fair weather fans caught my eye. Lamprey mentioned Stuttgart and Bayern specifically, but could the comment be applied generally that all south Germans tend to display fair-weatherness toward their teams? I'm asking because we are very guilty of this in Cincinnati.
No. It cant. And that Stuttgart should have fair-weather fans is new to me. In my view there are 4 Buli teams I would call fair-weather fans: Bayern, Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg, Leverkusen. Hertha used to have them. The extreme example is of course Bayern, while their ultras are "okay", the rest of their crowd is pretty spoiled by success and you'd rather call them "opera audience". And the South has pretty good supported teams too: 1860("cough") the working class choice in Munich, Nuremberg, Stuttgart(Cannstatter Kurve) and to a certain degree Freiburg. Dont know if we could call Kaiserslautern a Southern team, but their home Betzenberg stadium was called "Hexenkessel"(witches' cauldron), a term to describe a very unfriendly stadium and crowd for the opponent's team. As soccer used to be a poor men's sport, and there are regional disparities between the South and e.g. the Ruhr valley: Schalke and Dortmund have bigger (working class) supporting crowds. But that doesnt mean the South would just have to offer fair-weather fans.
I'd actually say that Hanover has a base of 35k, the other 14k we need to call the stadium could either also be considered fair weather (or guest fans if the wrong team visits).
Those good fans seem to have a hard time getting to the stadium when their club doesn't play well, though. Stuttgart and 1860 are certainly clubs that can get pretty low crowds in case a game isn't exactly a thrilling top of the table clash.
Yes, like how does one explain Stuttgart drawing 15k for Europa League matches. That is pretty embarrassing and fair weather to me. Fair weather fans is not a southern issue though. I think it only applies to Bayern and Stuttgart. Freiburg, Kaiserslautern, Nurnberg are all very well supported and generally regardless of how well they are doing. Hoffenheim is a unique case. Super low crowds this year. But they are a "new" club without history and thus no long-term, die hard fans to draw on so it makes sense the success of the team is strongly correlated with attendance.
Somebody asked if the Bundesliga teams could be compared to NFL football teams in the US. I dunno that it works too well but I am going to try. Note, I am not that old so my perception of the NFL is strongly weighted towards what has happened in the last 10-15 years. Bayern Munich = New England Patriots - most successful, most bandwagoner fans, very well run by the owners, perennial favorite Borussia Dortmund = Pittsburgh Steelers - ok, the colors were easy but seriously they are both in former industrial/steel/mining cities. Both very successful, fans across the country, always a sellout at home, passionate fans, currently young coaches that are the envy of the league. Hamburg = Dallas Cowboys - the sleeping giant of the league. Mediocre lately but used to be dominant. Located in huge cities with a lot of money and wealthy citizens. Tons of drama, poorly managed by owners, joke of the league in terms of incompetent board room. Bayer Leverkusen = Buffalo Bills - Leverkusen is called Neverkusen or Vizekusen for a reason. They have never won and constantly contrive to take 2nd place. Remember the Bills losing the super bowl 4 times in a row? That is Leverkusen. Other than this fact, it isn't a great connection. The Bills are hopeless now while Leverkusen is a financially strong, consistently good team. Eintracht Frankfurt = Oakland Raiders - both have the most violent, belligerent fans and are generally detested by everyone else. Very passionate of course, but to an extreme. Located in large, financial hub cities. I will try to do more later if anyone enjoys this.
The Patriots used to have fair weather fans before they moved to Foxboro, but since the Plunkett era, they have been well supported. Enthusiasm for the team may have ebbed and flowed in that time, but attendance has been strong. (I say this without checking the numbers. ) Oakland is not a financial hub, ergo not San Francisco. It is one of the most crime ridden cities in the US ... not really comparable to Frankfurt on that level. However, as you said, the fans probably share some commonalities.
Yeah, werent there some people calling your previous stadium "Highbury, the Library"? But I would argue that the atmosphere in English stadiums as a whole suffered after the introduction on all-seater concepts. Ive already heard English commentators saying a ten times that "this(Dortmund/Westfalenstadion)could show how the atmosphere would look like in England too" if they hadnt done it.
That would be a good argument. Lots of English football pundits and writers have said the same thing (bemoaning the lack of stands). Now that I think about it, Bayern's and Arsenal's stadium atmospheres probably aren't too different. Lots of "posh" people in attendance. They don't really "let loose." I'd argue that the Allianz is probably louder though. As a Bayern fan I readily admit there are a lot of stadiums in Germany with a better atmosphere. From experience, I've only been to Olympiastadion to see Hertha and the AA to see Bayern. The difference was clear. The AA wasn't a morgue or anything...it was just more subdued.
The lack of stands...yes, but you can see a difference of atmosphere apart from regional differences(posh people) also the architecture of the stadium. Btw as a Munichian, it is widely known that 25.000 1860 fans get a better support together than always sold-out FCB. You said you've been to Berlin and Munich. Both are in my view the stadiums with the worst acoustic conditions. Berlin is no classical football stadium(close to the field etc) good support gets lost in the open wide. AA like Emirates is from a supporters perspective total crap due to the three tiers. The standing sections are also comparably small. Ive made the experience that "big in a once" stands like Gelbe wand or Schalke get together a better support then if the Kurve is split up. The best acoustic has in my view Düsseldorf due to the huge standing section, the closed roof which makes it like a hall, and as its popular today a pure football stadium.
I agree that the track around the field at the Olympiastadion Berlin does negatively affect the atmosphere. Still, I was much more impressed with the fan noise there than at the AA. But yes, I would like to go to more "classic" German stadiums in the future
The track really does make a difference. I've always enjoyed the atmosphere at the Olympiastadion and the Ostkurve does a fantastic job. However, it'd be so much better in a stadium where you aren't so far away from the field. It probably hasn't helped, either, that we've been fairly miserable since 08/09.
Ok responding to requests: Hertha Berlin = combination of Los Angeles Rams and New York Jets. Tough one to do. Los Angeles Rams because often it is said in the US "how the heck does Los Angeles not have a football team (any more)" and often said in Germany/Europe "how does a huge city like Berlin not have a good team." New York Jets because both sets of fans are impatient, have a sense of fatalism or sarcastic pessimism about their team. They also are quick to boo and get against their team. Both also known as under performers with Hertha often being an elevator club or mid table. The Jets have historically been pretty poor. Also Rex Ryan is a little like Hertha's sporting director who is equally as delusional. Washington Redskins = Borussia Monchengladbach. Difficult one too! Good teams decades ago who were dominant for a period and built up a large fan base because of that success that has mostly stayed even during their recent spells of average play. Last decade has been ugly for both but now is looking up. Redskins with new hope with star rookie QB and BMG with a great, surprise season last year and now looking stable this season. One difference is Redskins known for spending big and making a lot of offseason trades. BMG not really known for this although over summer they did splurge using the cash from selling Reus and Dante.
Sorry for the bump, but this thread is as good as any to give me a place to cry. (Warning - this is a very self-indulgent post, filled with whining and lamentations of every ultimately unimportant kind. But I'm going to do it anyway! ) The long version of the story of my love for Germany and German soccer is... too long. So I'll skip most of it. The shorter story is despite having spent two years of my life in Germany, and spending periods of time in 8 different cities, I never picked a club. I had other things on my mind at the time. I have tried to pick a club at various times in my life and have been unsuccessful. Like someone mentioned in another thread, you don't pick a club, the club picks you. And my club hasn't picked me yet, maybe... Here are my attempts. Sachsen is my German home, and Leipzig is my love. Mein Leipzig, lob ich mir. It breaks my heart that Leipzig has no good club for me to call my own. Rasenball? Um, no thank you. Lok? The right-wing element is unfortunately too strong. That's it. So so sad. The other semi-successful clubs in Sachsen like Aue, Chemnitz, and Dresden, I have no personal connection to, and Dresden has its own issues... So I could only root for them superficially if at all. All other cities I have a personal connection to are home to RL or OL clubs that have, unfortunately, no hope of ever seeing the BL 1 or 2 (like Plauen and Halberstadt). So I can root for them weakly, but only with the enjoyment of rooting for my childrens' amateur teams. Except... There is one other city I have a personal connection to, and it was the very first city I spent any time in, so other than Leipzig, it is closest to my heart. That would be Stuttgart. So I should be a VfB fan, yes? I love the city. And there is much about the club that appeals to me. The players, the steady generally positive results, the traditional conservative colors and shield, etc. There's just one problem. I wouldn't expect most Americans to understand this problem, but I am curious how Germans would view it. Am I being silly, or is it understandable? I am an adidas man through and through; have been my whole life. I have been loyal to the three stripes for a long, long time. And Stuttgart wear... welllll... Puma! Why Puma? Anything but Puma! If I am going to be a fan, I want to wear the shirt. But I... just... don't know if I can bring myself to wear Puma... Tell me, Germans. Can I be a Stuttgart fan with that cat on the shirt? I want to, I really do. But the moment I think of myself wearing a Puma shirt and my adidas shoes, I cringe. You might ask how I can support my national team (USMNT) when they are Nike if I am such a strong adidas supporter. All I can say is, it is my country, so it is different. And Nike v. adidas is not the same as Puma v. adidas... OK, go ahead, everyone can make fun of me now. But someone out there must understand why this is a big deal...........
You are forgetting the other Leipzig team... Yeah, we may have been relegated this year, but it's better than the idiots and neo-Nazis at SGLL. CHEMIE! CHEMIE! NUR NOCH CHEMIE!
Well... ok... but you're going to be in the 7th tier next season. I'll smile if you do well, but... And forgive me, but what does SGLL mean?
Well I don't see why you don't just become an union fan. Find some way to catch a game at die alte forsterei and try not have your heart won, it's not possible, everyone should be fans of union, especially with all of the young talent starting to break through from our academies which have started to assemble all of the best talents from the berlin area who used to go to Hertha and other clubs. Plus we have Torsten Mattuschka, and there is only one Torsten Mattuschka.
I could see myself supporting Union in general, but not as a diehard. I have simply not spent enough time there. I was only in Berlin one day. I actually have some personal history with the country, I'm not a random American picking a club from afar. It's got to be somewhere I have a personal connection to. Stuttgart is most logical AND emotional, if I could get over my Puma hangup...
Well then the only logical solution is for you to spend more time in Berlin enjoying that wonderful city and catch a home game of the Eiserne. Then your club will have found you.
Well, all I can say is that Stuttgart used to have adidas until 10 years ago I think, and in todays Buli world supplier change fast. I think only "you-know-who" had one supplier (adidas) all the way through the years. But you're correct, I know some die-harts of my club who'd never buy a shirt of the national team because of: adidas. But the vast majority doesnt give a shit I think. The club's emblem on your shirt is what is important. Also, VfB is more of a regional thing, unlike other major teams around, you wont find any VfB fans in Munich or Hamburg. Maybe in Berlin . What makes Stuttgart an interesting pick is from time to time they play international and some teams like Freiburg, Karlsruhe, Hoppenheim and Stuttgarter Kickers are potential derby opponents. But as you said it yourself..... In mother Buli, club picks you!
There you got your solution! You can support Stuttgart and if you want to show colors, you just have to get your hands onto an old jersey! If you manage to get one of those old jerseys, you can even show Stuttgart and adidas colors at the same time! The only other solution is to wait until Stuttgart changes suppliers again...whenever that will be!