Pele vs. Michael Jordan

I would say it's better than leaving with either a red card or a failed drug test.

 

i tell you something on lance armstrong its a ********ing shame and a disgrace they stripped him of his titles they should appologize to him and give him his titles back.
ofcourse he used doping but so did all the top 10 cyclists of all the tours he won.
secondly i am not against punishing someone but if one should be punished then all should be punished.
remember the frenchman bernard thevenet ? he won the tour de france in 1977 when hennie kuiper became second.
10 years later thevenet confessed he used doping in the tour of 1977. did they strip him of his title ?? no they did not.
so oen guy is stripped of titles and another is not ?/ that ain't fair...
armstrong cheated.. yes he did. but when cycling he was never caught only years later. to bad for the authoritys just leave it at that i would say.
in those days all of them used. ullrich, pantani, rominger, zulle, eskartin, botero, contador, beloki, basso, mancebo, sevilla, vinokourov etc etc

 

It is a bit off subject but I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand I think the same like you do, on the other hand it seems that Armstrong had a special relationship with the governing bodies which allowed him to cheat more as others (wire-tapped emails show how Armstrong his team was certain that Ullrich and later Contador was less on drugs as himself). I'm also less forgivable when it comes down to the death threats and intimidation of him to the families of cyclists.

I'll post it in the coming days but Armstrong also did very well in athlete of the year elections. Without all the drama now he had been remembered as the second or third greatest cyclists of all-time and also one of the best personal stories (a one which ultimately inspired people).

Over the course of years I became more convinced about the shameful ways how Monica Seles and Ben Johnson their careers became ruined.

It would be even a bigger travesty if cycling will lose their Olympic status. Other sports do not combat it at all and/or are even more corrupt and wishy-washy.

 

i can understand you're point ofcourse. but fo me its easy. punish all or punish none. with the same punishments.
secondly that cyclists use doping is also our fault. we want them to drive faster, climb higher mountains (look at the program of the giro the last 10 years its incredible heavy) etc etc.
its almost impossible to perform 3 weeks in a row on such a highlevel without any sort of drug use.
lots of people with little knowledge of the sport think that taking doping will give you wings but they still have to perform at toplevel and train very hard.

last i fully agree with you on you're point on the threats that he did against those families those are all shamefull acts and i think the person lance ain't a nice peron. but nice or not if we strip him then all other former winners who admittred later on they used or where caught later on then also should be stripped

 

I can also empathize with your view but want to stress that there is one significant difference with previous cases. Armstrong is not only charged/accused for using it, but the USADA report explicitly accuses him for trading in drugs and pressurizing others (his then team-mates) to follow him. Those two elements are explicitly stressed and that is kinda 'new'. Previous stars only fell down from their statue for taking it, not trading it and other stuff.

 

Bro, that's rugby and yes...those guys kick ass. Don't take the football culture and mix it with rugby. It is two different things.

That is like saying the culture in the MLS is the same as the NFL and we all know that isn't true. Although I would like to see and NFL all-star team go against someone in the world and see records and bones being broken every five seconds.

Ouch! Talk about international embarrassments!

I'm pretty sure after that animalistic red card, Barcelona fans and staff were thinking, "what the hell did we just spend all that money for?"

I'm not even mentioning the positive doping tests in 1994...to have the whole world know your best figure is getting kicked out of such manner is beyond humiliating.

 

Maradona got kicked worse at WCs 82 and 90 yet he played on.

 

In WC90 against Romania he did, team doctors were ready to rule him out of the rest of the tournament. The treatment that Pele got was not as bad as Maradona in WC90.

 

Nope...it was 50 times worse. If the Europeans who masacred Pele were playing today and pulling the crap they pulled on him that year they would be in jail. Between the Portuguese, Bulgarians and Hungarians, they give the Estudiantes team of the late 60's a run for their money as to the most cynical, barbaric and violent team ever assembled.

That entire WC of 1966 was the culmination of all that is evil and downrotten in sports in general and helped give rise to that Argentine travesty.

 

FIFA changed the rules specifically because of the treatment to Maradona and Van Basten, that's how rough they had it. As for Estudiantes, they have won more Libertadores than any Brazilian club despite a small budget. They are only one side of the Argentine club culture, which also features River Plate (La Maquina the greatest South America team of all time), Boca Juniors and Independiente, all cream of the crop among the world's teams.

 

They won in the Libertadores of 1968 in which they actually did have a great team.

No Brazilian team participated in 1969 and Estudiantes literally won that title through kicks, punches and prostitutes.

In 1970, the only other clubs that could face them toe-to-toe (which were just as violent as them) send the bench for the entire tournament since those two clubs gave their national team literally all of their starters to prepare for the WC of 1970.

There is a difference between winning and being the best. The Libertadores of 1967-1975 were simply won. That's all. And those Nacional and Independiente clubs were almost as bad as Estudiantes.

None of those clubs are anything to be proud of. I was glad to see Estudiantes win in 2009 with the basis being football but that travesty of the late 60s forever tainted that team. That was the creation of an extremely vulgar WC of 1966 and the corruption prevalent in Argentina.

 

What have those names in common by the way?

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

They are Spanish. Makes me sick

Add Gonzelez-Galdeano, Casero, Olano, Roberto Heras, Serrano, Sastre, Mayo, Zubeldia, Pereiro.

I tell you what. I read a long time ago a book about Spain from a Spanish correspondent (Edwin Winkels is the name of the guy; not a good journalist but I presume he did his homework). He tells in the book (literally!) that Spain has a pharmacy store on every street corner. No other European country has the same density. You can order and buy all sorts of medication without doctor approval. Very easy. The Spanish population belongs among the heaviest medication users of Europe, seriously.

What have Ullrich, Pantani, Rominger, Zulle, Basso, Armstrong, Vinokourov, Menchov, Rasmussen, Landis, Kloden etc. in common? They all speak Spanish very well.

Menchov speaks better Spanish as English and so on.

Zulle, Armstrong, Menchov, Pantani, Ullrich all had a second home in Spain. They trained in Spain and live during working time. Other cyclists like Gesink and VandenBroeck have moved to the same regions because 'everyone is training there'. This is no joke. All big guns had a second home in Spain and trained there. Why?

Tell ya a secret: I don't trust it. I don't trust Spain. Rafael Nadal, Xavi, Contador. Nadal is suddenly out for months with a vague injury. Rumors exist that he is just suspended for a while (dunno whether that is true).

You are also right that the public demands records and performances. Whatever you think about it. Do you remember the 2003 Alpe d'Huez stage when the US Postal team attacked the mountain like a mass sprint? Like Cipollini, Cavendish etc? That was amazing. Of another planet.

[turn off music]

And this remains the greatest race in history. That facial expression of Lewis, the disbelief in his face... Epic.

 

Puck, you are completely out of touch here (as usual). Any country in Latin America allows to buy medications, including what would be classifed as controlled meds in the USA, without prescriptions and pharmacie are commonplace as they are profitable businesses.

The way you truly believe your half-baked, tits-down theories and uphold a standard for others that would club the Nazis in rigor (how ironic) is quite scary.

 

What do you mean with your last paragraph?

You ignore some of my main points. Like: of course pharmacie is a profitable business but in Spain they are more rampant as somewhere else. A statement like that doesn't address what I say. It is circular reasoning. It is obvious that these stores would not exist in the same amount if it wasn't profitable.

Thank you substantiating some of the claims I made. If anything, it supports my statements.

Just like your preferences I'd say.

Anyhow, all the drama aside, Lance Armstrong belongs/belonged in the elite class alongside Pelé.

 

I did this on another thread before too, but have to say the Hungarians were not dirty and of course didn't foul Pele because he was not fit to play in that game:
(other videos linked from that one)
He was clearly badly injured during the Portugal game though and couldn't do any more while limping so much.

 

Ignoring the drama, can you tell me another one who dominated the most important event of an international sport for seven consecutive years? So: in athletics the equivalent is the Olympics and World Championships (held in non-Olympic years).

He also received honors across the world which signals the international nature of his achievements. In his own country he was in the AP athlete poll (the oldest one) four times first (2002-2005) and three consecutive times second (1999-2001).

So, who does belong to the elite class?

 

actually i think puck is right. i know that spanish people use medicine more then any other european peoples for example.

 

Of course not. They injured Garrincha.

It is worth nothing that Brasil never lost a single match, official or friendly, when Pele and Garrincha played together.

Kicking Pele out was definetly not enough (as proven in 1962). Everyone got the "special" treatment. The worst was done to Pele.

Gilmar, Djalma Santos, Bellini (our captain), Altair, Garrincha and Alcindo...over half of our starters were hacked by savages and couldn't even play by the last group match. And that includes our goalkeeper!

Pele and Denilson were also in the same shape. But since EVERY EXPERIENCED FORWARD WAS KICKED BY BARBARICS, they were put in to offer support the debutants.




I suggest you watch the matches in their entire before putting highlights.

Almost makes me wish Pele, and our football in general, give international football the middle finger.

The calamity about this is that the British complained about the ICs in 1967-68 when they helped create those Argentine clubs.

 

I've watched the Hungary-Brazil game in its entirity mate - that is just the first part of several parts (didn't want to post them all on the thread). Sorry for any confusion. Can you find where they injure Garrincha cos I don't remember that?

But it's true that Pele received several bad fouls vs Portugal (viewing highlights is enough to see that) and like I said I don't see what else he could have done once limping so badly - he did well to play on and make some good passes with his left foot.

In summary my view is that Pele was too badly injured to show what he could do/keep Brazil in the competition but that Hungary didn't play a dirty game against Brazil (the commentator says what a great game it was at the end I remember and I agree it was excellent with some good early play by Brazil but overall a great game by Hungary including especially Albert and Bene).

 

I haven't substantiated anything you claim, you are the typical man with a hammer who sees nails everywhere.