Payne: "New Young Designated Player Program"

By and large, MLS isn't missing out on these kids.

The players you are lamenting over are marginal USL level talents.

The guys that are signing with Bundesliga, EPL level clubs right out of high school or college likely would never sign with MLS no matter what.

The guys that MLS misses out on completely for Scandinavian type leagues (Davies, Tracy, Bedoya) aren't exactly "blowing up" and selling on for massive transfer fees. Davies and Tracy both came back to MLS, Bedoya isn't that far away from winding up.

The problems you are lamenting only exist in your mind. They aren't a reality.

 

We see this all the time when someone gets wound up in the Yanks Abroad forum and comes in here talking about 100s (or in this case 10s) of American players that would be in MLS if only the Salary Cap were higher.

The reality is close to what you say. The real elite players that, for the most part, MLS wouldn't have regardless of Salary Cap. MLS isn't going to participate in the UCL, ever.

The bulk of players that aren't MLS quality. Brad Rusin springs to mind. I've seen folks in YA forums talk about him needing to be called up to the USMNT. He was a very good player in the U.S. - for the Carolina RailHawks. At the very best, these players are replacement level players.

Finally there is a small group of players that could contribute in MLS, but many of them play overseas because it's something they want to try. Chris Rolfe went overseas not because the Fire didn't offer to pay him, but because he had the opportunity to do something cool and different. And, just like so many others, he wound up back in the U.S.

 

boloni, look at it this way.

1, How much does it cost to develop an MLS level pro, once you factor in all the washouts?
2. How much is an MLS level pro worth?

That, right there, is the issue. It barely costs out for an MLS team to run minimal academies, to basically use local pay-to-play clubs to bring the cream to the top and then skim it off when the kids are 15 or so years old. It doesn't come close to costing out for an MLS team to run a regional youth development system, with, for example, the Crew having an academy that goes down to U8 in Columbus, with satellites in Cincinnati and Cleveland and Louisville and so forth.

Throw in the fact that there's this whole other system of pay-to-play and college scholarships that costs MLS not one damn dime and that contributes enough Woolard-Wells Thompson-Jeff Parke level players, and you're basically whining because MLS owners aren't spending enough of their money on your wishlist.

 

I don't necessarily put anything on the owners.

It's the players that are choosing to go. For most of them there would be a roster spot somewhere in the country to take advantage of if they were willing to stay.

This is what happens when players don't hit the pro ranks until they're 20+ on average. For example Brazil has a lot of 20 year olds going abroad, but by the time they're 20 they've already been on the first team roster for their clubs for 2-4 years with first team appearances on the resume.

The solution would be for American development systems to be so strong that no American would want to give up the opportunity to go through them. I don't have all the answers to get to that point, but it seems like things are getting better with the MLS academies and hopefully the new USL reserve partnership. I still wish college soccer programs were more all consuming with longer seasons and more ambitious development programs ... but that's probably wishful thinking

 

Franco di Santo
Alberto Costa
these two Argentinian internationals was partially developed in youth academies of Argentina but signed first professional contracts not in Argentina. if I dig deep enough, I'm pretty sure I can find 8 more...

 

Many, many Argentinians from the Jujuy province go directly to play as pros in Bolivia. I know that Ariel Ortega's family was considering this before they took him for trials in River Plate.

 

on mlssoccer.com article, Eloundou would have been eligible for the draft (just like Atouba) except his visa didn't come through on time

 

The league. Just like they were on all the other international players that teams have taken on through the draft in years past.

 

The league, just like every other deal that is ever done since it's a single entity structure.

 

I think the questions was more along the lines of "Who is going to cover the cap hit for the loan fee, the Rapids or MLS?"

That is a good question.

 

I could find two of his current club teammates, though, Cesc (Arsenal) and Pique (Man Utd) who were largely developed at La Masia and then bolted for England to start their senior careers. Barca got them both back, but in Cesc's case at great cost.

I thought I heard that there was some sort of transfer subsidy in this case.

 

Okay, now I'm intrigued.

If they are under contract, there has to be some escape clause that provides they need to be claimed in some way and moved to an MLS roster -- absent that, perhaps they receive some limited payment or expenses, but that's it.

Still, how would this work with the discovery process? I'd think there must be some potential for overlap.

 

I was thinking of the normal scouting process. Unless MLS focuses only on players no one has on their radar, would a discover claim trump MLS signing a player for this program? I would think so, but, as you suggest, the team may be stuck with a cap charge for the loan fee if they claim him that way, so we may see some strange situations were teams would rather try and claim the player through this allocation process.

Which begs the question, if only players who participate in some allocation lottery can be young DPs, doesn't that provide something of a disincentive for teams that invest in scouting to find players? If a team really discovers a young player who is in every way equal to the players in this young DP program and files a claim and wants him, why wouldn't MLS absorb that loan fee too? Or will it?

 

Why wouldn't MLS absorb the loan fee? While they are both youth DP spots they are still quite a bit different. This new rumored youth DP spot is in addition to a teams normal DP spots. So teams can essentially have FOUR DPs. A team can sign their youth DP/s that they found on their own and then have another one which comes via this new allocation.

And because they are DPs, they are going to count the same against the cap regardless of any loan fee. The only thing that will factor in is what age bracket they fall into for youth dp purposes.

 

Rapids. Guys on loan aren't exempt from the cap. Juninho wasn't free for the Galaxy because he was on loan last season. No on loan player is.

 

Why are you bringing up Eloundou anyways? MLS stated why he went in an allocation.

Eloundou doesn't fit the criteria for what Payne was describing.

From the original report, it doesn't sound the way you are portraying it.

Besides, a DP is about the cap hit, not whether the player is on loan or fully purchased.

So, from what Payne was saying, they WILL be DPs from the start. And it sounds like they will have their own allocation system in place for it.

 

I actually don't think that is right in relation to players taken in the draft. Most of the previous players taken in the draft were on loan from another club, so there was a loan fee most likely associated with it. However, to the best of my knowledge, they only counted the league minimum against the cap (from what I remember reading). I don't think that MLS would make the team eat the loan fee as well since it would likely result in teams passing on pretty much every international in the draft (non-college ones I mean). What I believe happens is MLS uses their scouting network to find a couple players that they think might be good additions to the league and make them available to the teams at the league minimum. Then if they show well it is up to the team to pay the money to buy the player's rights. I think there is a difference in how the loan fees are assessed for league found talent (internationals in the superdraft) and club found talent. That is just my assumption though.

 

Let's back up and make sure we have the same understanding of who pays what for DPs now.

My understanding is that DPs are signed by the league like every other player, but, unless allocation money is applied*, any cost of acquiring and paying the player over the cap charge -- $350,000* -- is billed back to the I/O. In other words, the cost of the player includes the sum of: (a) wages. plus (b) any transfer fee or loan fee to the extent they apply. Now, the rules don't exactly say that -- the rules note that the club is "bearing financial responsibility for the amount of compensation above each player’s budget charge", but we know loan and transfer fees count as compensation against the cap from previous DPs.

Let's try an example. Say a typical DP signs a one year deal. The player's wages are $500,000, with a loan fee of $500,000, for a total cost of $1 million. MLS will pay $350,000, and the I/O will be billed for the remaining $650,000. The cap charge is also $350,000.

Now, the same example with $500,000 in wages and a $500,000 loan fee, but with a 22 year old player. The cap charge is reduced to $200,000**, which gives the team more room under the cap, but the I/O pays more -- $800,000 in this case.

Finally, under this new young DP program, my question is whether the loan fee is added in to the player cost? If it isn't, the I/O will pay less, because he's being billed back only for the wages over the cap charge, not the loan fee. If the cap charge is the same -- $200,000 -- if MLS picks up the $500,000 loan fee, it pays $700,000, while the I/O pays $300,000. Potentially, it's a huge difference in cost to the I/O.

Is this accurate, or do people understand this differently?


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* MLS says, " In 2012, a Designated Player over the age of 23** will carry a salary budget charge of $350,000, unless the player joins his club in the middle of the season, in which case his budget charge will be $175,000 . . . Clubs have the option of “buying down” the budget charge of a Designated Player with allocation money. The reduced charge may not be less than $150,000."

** MLS says "a Designated Player 20 years old or younger** counts as $150,000 against the club’s salary budget and a Designated Player 21-23 years old counts as $200,000 against the club’s salary budget."

http://www.mlssoccer.com/2012-mls-roster-rules

 

These last few posts is exactly why this is so tedious. Just let the clubs find and pay for whatever DP they want at whatever age. Keep MLS FO out of it.