So now population and land mass are reasons that players slip through the cracks? How do population and land mass impede Russia, China, Brazil or Mexico? The reason we miss out on players is cultural. The US pro leagues are doing a good job in slowly changing the perceptions, and I suspect in 20 years the American player that totally skips the domestic circuit will be almost obsolete But of course some of you don't care for that kind of progress. You'd rather defend the status quo
Of course nobody is saying that, but nice strawman. What I'm saying is that given the state of the league and the sport, missing maybe 30 players that MLS could actually be signing is not worth the amount of words that have been typed about it on BigSoccer. In other words, chill the f*** out.
Well a lot of the reason we have players developing abroad is because few countries have the immigrant population we have. I'd say about half of our prospects have immigrant parents and quite a few of them have the opportunity to return to their home countries and train there.
I'm calm. I'm not the one being defensive. It's like any criticism is supposed to be blasphemy. Just stating the obvious difference between pro soccer careers in the US vs. most other countries And I'm not even criticizing anything. I think the league is going in the right direction. Just in the last week MLS signs 3 2nd division Scandinavian guys that according to some in this thread should of been forgotten about because they'll never be good enough to earn a paycheck at home Whatever ... Get back to me in 20 years when virtually no American will go abroad to start a career.
Your argument has been thoroughly refuted, using actual facts, and you're still arguing about it. Get over it. There is not great collection of MLS caliber players escaping from the US without playing in the league. It just isn't happening.
We would need to have about 300 financially stable professional soccer teams to be able to blanket the country with the same per capita requirements that countries like Korea and Japan and Romania and every other country except for China and Russia has. You really don't seem to understand geography and population.
He also doesn't understand competition. In most other countries there might be 1 or 2 other sports that have a decent number of people playing. Maybe rugby, cricket, or hockey depending on where you are. In the US, depending on the region you're in, soccer is trying to compete with football, basketball, baseball, hockey, lacrosse (still the fastest growing sport in the US), and more. There simply aren't that many young athletes in the US who are dedicated to soccer only or even soccer first, meaning that there aren't as many players to miss per capita as there are in other countries.
Always has been. Always will be. Couple that with the sporting culture that places soccer in 5th place in terms of team sport popularity, which in turns leads to a very finite number of financially stable professional soccer teams, and only a complete and total moron wouldn't understand that area and population makes it impossible for 16 teams to find everyone. China - Communist, their players aren't allowed to leave Brazil - Most popular sport with dozens of teams whose entire business model is based on player development and selling those players to bigger clubs at a profit. Mexico - Most popular sport and is slightly larger than the state of Alaska. The US is 5 times the size of Mexico. The US is also about 3 times the size of Mexico with regards to population. And if that wasn't enough, because soccer is the most popular sport, there are multiple teams on multiple levels of their pyramid that are financially stable and can support player development. Russia - Most popular sport along with hockey. Its population is less than half of the US and is centered in uban areas (74%) and those urban areas are blanketed by multiple tiers of financially stable professional soccer clubs. I'm all for improvement. I hail the progress of the youth academies in MLS. I wish US soccer would open 5 more Bradenton like facilities around the country. At the same time. I don't see a mass exodus of players that are MLS level quality, let alone national team quality. It isn't nearly as big of a problem as people like you make it out to be. And due to the sheer size and geographic scope of this country, it is impossible to catch everyone. There is only one country in the entire world that compares to the US with regards to land mass and population. That country is Brazil. So unless we, as a country, turn into Brazil with regards to our obsession with soccer,we will NEVER catch every single solitary player.
Thank you for making my point for me. If these guys that go abroad and play in lower divisions prove themselves to be good enough, they can return to MLS as more seasoned professionals who can contribute right away. Those that aren't will continue to toil away in 2nd and 3rd tier leagues. The only thing that MLS is missing out on is the cost of developing these players into guys that can contribute. What exactly is the loss? These players come back. Its like the 4 billion threads that have been started about all the players we lose to Scandinavian leagues. Those people who cry about that complete ignore the fact that 90% of those players are right back in MLS within a few years. So what if Joe Schmoe signs with a Swedish team out of college, spends a few years plying his trade abroad and then comes back to MLS ready to contribute. How is that so different from Joe Schmoe signing with an MLS team, being loaned out to NASL and USL Pro (where he's likely getting inferior coaching than he would have gotten in Sweden) and then making his MLS debut? The obvious difference is that the kid is getting better coaching and training abroad while the MLS team isn't wasting 3 years salary on a kid that may or may not ever pan out.
Word on the street is that the incoming U17 class will be the last USSF residency class. Frankly it's overdue. I think the future is for MLS clubs to carry the ball from here.
What facts? List the countries that have similar numbers of players that bypass their domestic system. I've already listed about 30 established players. I can easily list at least another 30 that are in academies today as we speak. For example my country Romania has had maybe 5 players in the last decade that went to start their careers somewhere else. This is pretty typical for any European, Latin American or Asian country. 60>5 Show me the facts of an established non African country that comes close to that. The fact is that the US is in a unique category with Canada, Australia and New Zealand in this regard. It's a unique soccer circumstance.
You honestly think that those players that skipped MLS/USL did because there was no opportunity to sign at home somewhere? The US doesn't produce enough pro players that they wouldn't have enough roster spots available in the current set up. The current amount of clubs in the US between all the leagues combined is pretty well matched to the availability of talent coming through. We could easily absorb 100 yanks abroad between all leagues combined. Geography is an excuse. It's a cultural issue, not a geographic issue. These players, for the most part, chose to go abroad ... they're not forced to because of lack of any other option.
Your country, Romania, is the size of Indiana with a population roughly the size of New York state. If MLS was entirely concentrated in the state of New York, with 5 teams just in New York City, and that was the breadth and scope of the entire country, NOT A SINGLE PLAYER THAT KNEW HOW TO LACE UP HIS OWN CLEATS WOULD SLIP THROUGH THE CRACKS. This isn't rocket science. Show me a country in the known universe that compares to the US in all of the following categories 1) Land Mass 2) Population 3) Sports culture, i.e. competition for players and $$$ from other team sports 4) Number of financially stable professional teams per capita I'll save you a shitload of time. There aren't any that even come close. The US is completely unique on every single conceivable level.
Did I ever say that soccer doesn't have competition? So now a player like Josh Gatt or Bobby Wood is going to start their careers abroad because there's too much football and baseball in the US? Big deal ... Soccer is not that popular in the US. As a result some players decide they don't want to start a career here. That's kind of my point
You're arguing common sense with someone who has none. Or, as Mark Twain stated, "Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
just some quick numbers to support the argument that population/area vs # of clubs is the main reason we see more US players bypass the domestic league than in other nations: US: 315,000,000; 9.15M sq mi; 40 pro clubs (MLS, NASL, USLPro*); 119 semi-pro (PDL, NPSL) UK: 63,000,000; .24M sq mi; 115 pro clubs (top 4 ENG leagues, top 2 SCO leagues); 239 semi-pro (levels 5-7 ENG; top 2 levels of WALEs; top 2 levels of NI; bottom 2 levels of SCO) JAP: 128,000,000; .35M sq mi; 40 pro clubs (J1, J2); 149 semi-pro (levels 3-5) which means in the US there is 1 pro club for every 7,875,000 people or 1 club (pro or semipro) for every 1,981,132 people. in the UK there is 1 pro club for every 547,826 people or 1 club (pro or semipro) for every 177,966 people. in JAP there is 1 pro club for every 3,200,000 people or 1 club (pro or semipro) for every 684,492 people. also it means that in the US there is 1 pro club for every 228,750 sq mi or 1 club (pro or semipro) for every 57,547 sq mi. in the UK there is 1 pro club for every 2,087 sq mi or 1 club (pro or semipro) for every 85 sq mi. in JAP there is 1 pro club for every 8,750 sq mi or 1 club (pro or semipro) for 1,872 sq mi. i would do the same thing for MEX and BRA but i don't feel like counting the clubs ....
He moved to Switzerland when he was two. If we include all the Americans that play abroad that didn't grow up in the US, the list would double. As for Messi, he's a special exception. I doubt you could find another 10 Argentinians that started their careers that way. Messi's case had the whole influence of the medical treatments he was getting in Barcelona.
I think there are a number of factors involved, but what local team is a kid from Mississippi going to sign a youth contract with? So yes, geography and population play a massive factor. In addition, we are a nation of immigrants (yourself included). And a lot of these players on the list you provide were either born abroad, are 1st generation, or moved abroad at a young age. So they are just as culturally tied to a foreign country as they are to the US. According to Yanks-abroad, there are 93 Americans playing abroad. The vast majority of which fall into two categories. 1) The Clint Dempsey's of the world that are too good for MLS. 2) The Kyle Luetkehansof the world who aren't good enough for MLS. Between those two categories lies about 15-20 guys that are good enough for MLS. And every year, about 5-10 of those guys sign with MLS anyway. Geography is one of several reasons. Anyone who tries to pin it down to just one thing is an idiot.
When did I ever say the US wasn't unique? That's my whole point. The reason that players slip through the crack here is because it's unique. I've already posted several times that the US is in a special category of soccer countries with Canada and Australia. Advanced countries, large land mass, soccer is a secondary sport, pro leagues are young, large immigrant populations that still have ties to countries of origins ... The result is several players opt to pursue soccer careers abroad.
My God you just don't understand basic thought. 1) soccer isn't as popular here 2) professional soccer teams don't have the revenues that other sports have 3) minor league professional soccer teams have barely enough money to travel to away games, let alone fund full time youth academies. Starting to see the correlation here? Just because a professional team exists, does not mean that they have the financial means to take on "projects" and develop these kids, let alone take on full fledged youth academies.
I'm not saying it's necessarily "wrong". Sometimes it robs an MLS fan like me from seeing a player I'd love to see go through the league first. Even if it's just for a year, and then they blow up and get sold. Especially in that case, because then we're missing out on a transfer fee. It is what it is. I'm not criticizing anyone. Just want to see the number of players that skip pro ball in the US go down in the future.