what if the manager of your local MLS club said he admired Videla's ability to stay in power for so long and his ability to stand up to the bully next door (I guess in this case it would have to be Britain)? would it still upset you as much? I know it's a bit of a nuance, but saying you love somebody and saying you admire a person's ability to ____ (unless the ____ is killing puppies, kittens and baby seals).
You are the myopic person on this thread. You may say you do not discount that a majority of Cubans are rational and react appropriately, but in your comments here should show utter disdain since you can't find empathy for the plight of the suffering the Cuban American community has suffered. We agree there are reactionary people in Miami that fuel the fires and do not contribute to moving the normalization of relations and the free exchange of ideas with Cuba. I believe many acknowledge the embargo was a failure, counterproductive and was a detriment not to Fidel, but to the Cuban people. Why the hate and more importantly why the lack of empathy for the Cuban community? After all the hard line mouth breathers are a smaller percentage of the Cuban community given that a majority are either dead or have tempered their anger over time. Furthermore, you show yourself to be a less than exemplary in your behavior. Quite petty and small actually given that you can't separate your anger towards what is in fact now a small percentage of the Cuban community from the actual suffering caused the Cuban community by Castro. Are you truly so hung up on this idea that the Cubans were given preferential treatment. I never saw it. The only preferential treatment we received from the United States came with recognition we were political refuges. We never received any payments from Uncle Sam, and most important the suffering and the displacement of families was real. Too bad for you that you are so hung up on the reaction of Cubans to real oppression by their government. How dare you. You don't know crap about what I or my family suffered. You stated your dad was a journalist who left Cuba after the revolution. Why pray tell did he not leave during Batista? One last thing, read up and illuminate your mind, but Cuba in 1958, had one of the highest standards of living in Central and South America. Cuba always had good healthcare. Ask most Cubans and they would tell you that while Castro brought healthcare to los Capesinos and the outlying provinces, the overall quality of healthcare declined, but of course I'm lying and you Mr. Know it all are in the right. Talk about who is the individual with an intractable position. A clue, eres tu companero. Oh look at that, the reaction or protest to Ozzie at the game was non-existent. I guess at best that makes you a bad prognosticator. http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/danny-knobler/18628564/ozzies-still-talking-and-nobodys-protesting I have nothing further to add given your position.
Let's be clear: I show utter disdain for ppl unable to leave behind fictitious arguments in their head. Take a look at what I actually ... you know... say. projecting, brodda The. Incessant. 50. Years. Of. Whining. Distract. From. Real. Issues. Of. Repression. Dude. By emphasizing the distraction, I'm actually... you know... showing disdain for the whiners and ... you know... compassion for those who truly suffered. Maybe b/c they never SHUT UP??? Then you're hopeless. You'll never see the privilege that brought you and your community. Don't you think it's kinda sorta strange that the only Latino community w/ heavy representation in the middle class and upper class... is the Cuban-American community? I remember distinctly that a pretty decent number of exiles received tidy subsidies from the US govt. You might not have. But others did. (Sorry, based on memory; it'll take a couple of days to hunt down the info.) And you don't know crap about what my family suffered. The majority of my family lived in Cuba during the Revolution. Still have family there. Talk about an assumption. Maybe b/c he never stepped foot in Batista's Cuba??? Ooooh, goodie, yet another opportunity for you to illustrate your lack of reading comprehension! See my comments on Cuba's electrical grid. Do you even bother to read or are you so gripped by the same argument since 1962 that you can't even see straight? Don't worry. It was a hypothetical question. We all know the answer. Unless you were black. And Batista's infant mortality rate wasn't that inspiring. Yeah. You've even quoted me when I discuss all these things I apparently don't know. Gotta love your reading comprehension. Awesome! Now maybe you can provide a link to where I say that the reaction at a Marlins game would be... anything. Good. Bad. Crazy. ANYTHING. Or is that just another delusional argument in your brain? Why stop adding non-existent things that I've never said but you wish that i did so that you could "catch me" and whine about how nobody understands Cubans. Maybe we don't understand 'cuz we don't know what the **** you're talking about.
It's clear that Carlos has taken the liberal viewpoint of Cuba as painted by the revolution. The dogma basically reads as follows. Prior to January 1, 1959 1. Cuba was a brutal dictatorship. Oh it was a dictatorship, no question, but people still were able to make a living and the degree of intrusiveness and control in the lives of the Cuba people did not match that post revolution. 2. Cuba was controlled by US interests and mafiosos. No question there was control by American companies and yes there was a major mob prescence in Habana, but that did not apply to all of Cuba. The notion that that was the overriding power is not true outside of Habana. 3. Cuba made great strides in education and healthcare post revolution. Before the quality of both was poor and only available to the rich. I can speak to the fact that as a middle class Cuban my parents both received high school degrees in Cuba and my dad was from Aguada de Pasajeros a small town in Cienfuegos, about 100 miles east of Habana. In larger towns there were good schools and good medical care. Cuba post revolution had one of the highest literacy rates in latin America as was the standard of living among the highest in the Americas. All the revolution did was even out the quality of care so that the very poor got an education and healthcare were it was minimal in the outlying provinces. Everyone else saw a reduction in the quality of education and healthcare. more later...
Trujillo was in power for about 20 years less than Castro (although the last 20 years, its kind of hard to say that Castro has been a monster.) He was responsible for killing more than 50,000, including this pleasant little incident: In October 1937, Dominican President Rafael Trujillo ordered the execution of the Haitian population living in the borderlands with Haiti. The violence resulted in the killing of 20,000[1][2] Haitian civilians during approximately five days. This later became known as the Parsley Massacre from the shibboleth that Trujillo had his soldiers apply to determine whether or not those living on the border were native Dominicans who spoke Spanish fluently. Soldiers would hold up a sprig of parsley, ask "What is this?", and assume that those who could not pronounce the Spanish word perejil were Haitian; both French and Haitian Creole realize the r as an uvular approximant and their speakers can have great difficulties with the alveolar tap or trill of Spanish.[3] In the Dominican Republic, the massacre is known as El Corte ("the cutting").[4] 20,000 in five days. Pretty impressive even by dictator standards. In the mid-seventies, I spent about three months in the DR. Even 15 years after his death, the country was still limping along from corrupt coup to coup. Simply driving from Santo Domingo to Santiago or Puerta Plata, you had to go through multiple military check points with the possibility of being sent back in the other direction or being detained. Point being that the effects outlast the dictator by quite a bit and there would still be a real need for asylum for many Dominicans years after Trujillo's death. It's only been in the last 25 years or so that the country has really stabilized and become a really good, functioning democracy. As a side note, I had to change planes on the way there in Haiti. This is under Baby Doc's regime. We walked down stairs of the plane to be greeted by several soldiers with automatic weapons drawn. They walked us into a small room, shut the door with two of them guarding the door with machine guns. When our flight was ready to leave, we were marched back on the tarmac and onto our plane. So much for promoting Haitian tourism. Haiti is another country that is a good example of still not coming out into the light from their dictatorships. Hey, I'm a white guy from the upper midwest with no Latin roots (okay, I'm black Irish, so I probably have some Spanish blood from the time the Armada set into port and bonked all the Irish women ) so, I've always followed a policy of not telling others what they should be offended by. Whether it is Indian mascots for sports teams or Cubans and Castro, I defer to the people who suffered or have relatives and ancestors who have suffered. No different here. I'm not going to call Cuban americans "sensitive" because Ozzie made stupid comments about Castro (and they were stupid). But in terms of treatment by the US, I don't think its stepping on any toes to suggest that we first allowed wealthy Cubans to flee because they were the beneficiaries of the US propped up dictator, and that we later had more advantageous immigration policies towards Cuban exiles because of Castro's ties to the Soviet Union. There are times when we show ourselves as a benevolent nation. But in most instances, there is more self interest than there is pure charity. Our treatment of Cubans in comparison to Dominicans, Haitians or Nicaraguans is proof of that in my mind.
If we want to discuss history, I agree about Trujillo being the worst dictator in the Americas, both in terms of killings, pervasiveness of intrusion of power and overall impact in the country - at least in the 20th century. (If we want to go back to the 19th century I'd nominate Paraguay's Franciso Solano Lopez. Paraguay has still never recovered from his evil.) But my contention is that Castro is not just your average Latin American dictator either, as some would have us believe. He had a much greater and much more pervasive influence than most, with the exception of Trujillo and possibly the Duvaliers and the Somozas. And his influence is exacerbated by the revisionist history now popular with the Latin American left, that tries to make him out to be less of a tyrant than he's been. I fear that such a view puts Latin America in a real danger of repeating very costly past mistakes. I have not problem with having a constructive debate about how to best deal with a tyrant like Castro. But when uclacarlos says that the Cuban victims of his regime should "chill the ******** out" I think he goes too far. He did recant a little bit on a later post, but I still do suspect that he sees Castro with ideologically colored glasses compared to how he sees other dictators.
I'm only now just reading this thread, and I found myself surprised by the cited number of Castro-related deaths of 100,000 people. Quite a bit higher than I would have guessed. I looked online, and I guess that this number is referring to the count put forward by one Armando Lugo here. According to Lugo, Casto executed or killed through extrajudicial means about 5,400 people. He also mysteriously counts some 16,000 who died in wars in Angola and in Cuba - counting deaths 'for and against' Castro. And then adds an estimated 77,873 who drowned trying to leave the island, using a 'mathematical formula'. None of this really speaks to any exact measure of Castro's repressive ill, but it's pretty clear to me that 100k is a totally fabricated number.
My (lengthy) post was in direct response to your post about Cubans receiving preferential treatment. I don't think I'm disagreeing with you, am I? Haitians and Dominicans have not received the same open arms policy as Cubans have, even though they lived under lengthy, oppressive regimes, that in many ways were far more brutal. I'm not at all coming down on Cuban Americans based on their feelings for Castro. I'm just saying that the US HAS treated them quite a bit differently and I think that is political, given Castro's ties with the Soviets.
No question it has had all to do with Castro's ties to communism and the former Soviet Union. The rest with regards to oppression is debateable on the question of denial of privacy and the extent of the survailance of the population. I won't speak as to numbers because there is no clear hard and factual count and the numbers killed.
Looks like Ozzie's still at it... Ozzie Guillen Praises Castro...Again Not sure what Ozzie's talking about. As carlos has already pointed out, Fidel probably wouldn't even merit a space in the Despot Hall of Fame. Oh, that Castro. Never mind.
Really? Who the f*** says that a dictator in power about as long as the average lifespan of Latin Americans is anything but above average? Seriously ladies... What's so hard to understand about the word "dictator" and all that it signifies? Just so you know, that's true of the Latin American left. I'm not your average Latin American. I believe in nuance. It makes life tough when arguing w/ ppl incapable of understanding grey. It's not just me who says that Miami needs to chill. It's Cubans in Miami!!! It's the international community. It's pretty much most US Latinos. It's pretty much the not-so-secret wish of the last 10+ American presidents who have been outlasted by Castro.
Cool story, bro! Now here's what I've actually ... you know... said in this thread that completely flies in the face of this tidy little fairy tale narrative you ladies have about my positions on Fidel/Fidelismo, Cuba pre/post Revolution, Miami Cubans: Nuance really is a bitch, bitches.
So now it's "the locos"? Seems to me that you believe in bending over backwards in the name of "nuance" only when it comes to the dictator, but when it comes to the exiles who are his victims you have all the nuance of a chainsaw.
You are insufferable. It's very easy to be a troll, take such a cavalier attitude and to also be dismissive with little regard for what people have suffered under Castro thanks to the anonymity of the internet and your user name. You have a hard on for the conservative view point of many Cuban Americans. You are entitled to your opinion and you are wrong. People have the right to complain even 53 years later. Yours is just an opinion and if you really are Cuban and you spoke to older family members that experienced the revolution first hand they would have a radically different viewpoint from your own unless of course they were leftists.
I'm dismissive of reactionaries. B/c they distract from the real pain suffered at the hands of a dictator. You've never addressed the fact that I've repeatedly called Castro a dictator and yet you seem to think I'm some kind of Castro apologist. I don't know how many times I have to say this, but all the bullshit whining about trivial, meaningless crap ends up making ppl the world over dismiss Cubans and their plight completely. In other words: this Guillen controversy -- which YOU YOURSELF have pointed out got glossed over by the majority of Miami Cubans -- serves as yet another reminder that the Cuban-American community is still haunted by reactionary locos. Yes. Locos. They're ****ing crazy ass whiny little bitches. The reactionaries. Not all of them. Most of them let them whine away and then take hold of the conversation. Just like they did w/ Guillen. Which is EXACTLY what YOU SAID happened. It has nothing to do w/ conservative or liberal. It has to do w/ reactionary. Trust me. Get a liberal on this thread that says Fidel isn't a dictator or that he's a model leader and I'll slam them for being a freaking idiot who needs to pull their head out of their ass. I don't mind complaining. I mind whining. I mind irrationality. I'm not Cuban. I've never said I was. Again. Go through my posts -- actually read them this time -- in this thread and you'll find a partial answer as to my ethnicity. (Or look at my profile here on BS.) My family there started out leftist and are now anything BUT leftist. And, now that you mention it, they're hella anti-gusano b/c y'all are so myopic.
It's always been. The reactionaries are a bunch of locos. Where the nuance comes in is that the general culture tends to be pretty myopic when it comes to Cuban history or Fidel or anything Cuba related. The most interesting component of the population are the young ppl and the new immigrants who just yawn at the previous generations. It's awesome.
Not much nuance on your part, is there? Obviously as the years go by and we get further away from the time of the numerous firing squads and risky escapes, there are bound to be some yawns from the young who didn't live through it. But it doesn't justify such a "nuanced" individual as yourself who really should know better from coming here and calling the victims "locos".
That's always been the case with such people, regardless of the field. That you get so worked up about it seems to show a lack a judgement on your part. Just Grow Up FFS!!
Convenient of you to drop out the waves of more recent immigrants (Post Special Period) that roll their eyes at the old hard-liners and the whiners. Just an fyi, that's what the Cuban-American community is having to come to terms w/: negotiating the assimilation of the large influx of economic exiles into a community that has historically been a political exile community. So my disdain for reactionaries like Alberto is right in step w/ the collective yawn of economic immigrants and the grandkids of the hardliners. These ppl honestly felt that following international law and US law by reuniting a father w/ his son after the mother died at sea was frickin' child abuse. That moment was huge for Miami b/c it's when there was a critical mass of "Holy crap. The world sees as a c-razy and they're right!" Have you ever been to one of the dozens and dozens of protests in Miami? They have them for every occasion Cuba-related. Honestly, da pena. You end up feeling sorry for them. And just like Alberto pointed out when he said that the majority of Cubans in Miami didn't pay any attention to this "controversy", the tide has shifted and pretty much everybody sees the hardliners as being pathetic. That's Miami Cubans, bro. Not just me.
Cubans take it to another level. Perhaps it's lost in translation, but they seriously do. Maybe it's b/c I've got family there, for starters. And the fact remains that ppl treat Cubans w/ kid gloves, which does everybody a disservice b/c the community isn't challenged enough. When they're being bat shit crazy, they need to get called out.
Your problem is that the economic exiles don't vary much from the political exiles. The former who came to America have developed the same way as the latter: Initially being supportive of Fidel, they became disillusioned. Either way, they wind up meeting at the same crossroads: Fidel forced them to move abroad. What the reactionary thinks is irrelevant since they don't need to be bombastic to come to the same conclusion. It only became an issue because the mother didn't survive.
No they don't. I hear the same level from socialists & environmentalists, to capitalist and die-hard conservatives. It all comes down to the same method. It doesn't matter whose involved. And you won't get anywhere. So stop with the BS and start using your head.
The economic exiles differ significantly. They don't share the same anti-Castro venom. They stayed during communism. In other words, they never felt forced or coerced or excessively repressed to the point of leaving. They only left when w/ the fall of the Soviet Bloc rationing became severe. Their approach to All Things Cuba is simply not the same. They're respectful of the old school Cubans and let them whine away. But then they bring the dialogue back to a more reasonable, rational tone. Case in point: I was in Miami when Juanes (Colombian pop star) announced he was doing a concert in Havana. For 2-3 days, all you heard on the radio -- and it was just about every radio station -- was how ppl refused to ever buy anything ever again by Juanes and even Colombia for that matter, that he's going to hell, that Juanes supports dictatorship, etc. By the afternoon of that 3rd day, the tone had begun to shift: respect towards those whose families have suffered under Castro, but this is a concert for the ppl, not the government. By the 5th day, every call was "It's. A. Frickin'. Concert. Relax." That pattern is pretty consistent w/ every controversy I've seen since Elian Gonzalez. There's a sharp difference btw the first 2 decades of immigrants (middle and upper class, mainly white, rejection of communism from pretty much the start), then the Marielitos of the early '80s/rest of the 80's (when more Cubans of color began coming over, much more lower socio-economic class), Post Soviet Bloc/Special Period (severe disillusion over the failed promise of communism; tended to be on board w/ the Revolution a LOT longer than earlier waves of immigrants), late 90's/recent immigrants (straight up economic opportunists like pretty much the average US immigrant). I keep mentioning Elian Gonzalez b/c that's when the power began shifting away from immigrants of the first 30 years towards the newer waves who just weren't as negatively affected by the regime. In short, scholars of Miami Cubans reject that assertion that newer immigrants vary rather little from the earlier immigrants. It became an issue b/c Miami Cubans lost their shit and couldn't analyze the situation for what it was, so fearful that Fidel would use Elian as a prop that they assured that the kid would absolutely be used as a political tool for the rest of his life.