I don't know, maybe it's my quasi-Confucian upbringing, but I'm totally cool with a benevolent dictator.* *Here's the thing - maintaining a dictatorship is HARD. Being supreme ruler doesn't free you from politics. You still do have to maintain a budget, even if revenue comes from plundering. A resentful citizenry tends to be unproductive and riot-prone. And going hardass can alienate the military. And while it might be nice to be above the law, how do you keep your underlings, who are only around to leech off you, disciplined? As attractive as dictatorship may seem, and consolidating power is often a useful short term solution, constitutional democracy is actually the most stress-free form of government for those in charge. That is, once the people develop enough trust in the institutions. So I sort of share Ozzie's regard for Castro's resilience, if not his human rights track record.
My brother worked in DC as an advocate for political issues dealing w/ Latinos. He's really, really conservative, and he says that it's not so much the locos in Miami but entrenched career politicos in the State Dept and the Treasury that are the guardians of all things Cuba-related. (Just throwing that out there...) And they ALL had apartments on the malecon in central Havana. I swear that beach must be like 2,000 miles long if everybody I've met truly had a house there. And they all brag about how they had threeTHREETRES maids. Dude. My dirt poor family in Santo Domingo has a maid or 2. My rich family there has 7+. My rich friends in the US have 2 or 3. In short, it was super cheap to get a maid back in the day. Unless you were black.
Dude, because I disagree with you, doesn't mean I jumped to conclusions. I find it irritating that you mischaracterized my initial post so that you could get to your own conclusion, which you clearly did. Don't blame me simply because I called you on it rather than let it pass. Next time, mr moderator, don't be disingenuous about someones post and you won't get called on it. Period. And like you I have a story from a Cuban who lived at that time period (my exes father) who would say the exact OPPOSITE of what your dad says about who he would prefer. And this is from someone who himself had to leave Cuba under the Castro regime because he was unhappy about it and let it be known. And 5 of his published books on the subject later (which I have read), I put stock in his version of events. And again, just to point out what I actually said, rather than what you are attributing to me ...... Batista was killing Cubans at a faster RATE than Castro. Varying US estimates put it at upwards of 20k in a 5 year period. Hell, even JFK (the same guy who tried to oust Castro in the Bay of Pigs) termed Batistas reign as one of the bloodiest and most repressive regimes by a dictator in the history of Latin America.
I've been purposely avoiding the topic of that last sentence for a reason. Please don't make me go there .... please ucla. i beg of you.
Pure fantasy to believe Batista killed more Cubans than the Castro regime did. If things were as bloody and repressive as you state why did 20 percent of the Cuban population leave after Castro came to power? It was not economic it was due to political repression. Those are the real facts. You are hell bent on pushing your agenda. Castro and his regime did a lot more harm to the Cuban people than Batista did. Block committees, indoctrination of children to spy and turn their parents in for antigovernment comments. Batista didn't do that. He had no idea how to completely manipulate the populace like Castro did. Go no further Castro was arrested in Cuba and exiles. You can be sure Batista would have been executed immediately.
This is my last response to you, because you refuse to read what I'm actually writing. I've stated twice (now 3 times) that Batista was killing Cubans at a faster RATE. When you learn what "rate" means, maybe you will get it. The amount of Cubans leaving under Batista vs under Castro is not persuasive either, because the US dealt with immigration from Cuba completely differently under Batista then it did immediately after Castro took power. The US basically rewarded any Cuban who felt like leaving. If that deal had been offered under Batista, you bet your bottom dollar that tons of them would have left .... especially those with ahem ..... a darker hue to them. You keep going on and on like Batista was a buffoon who just stumbled into the job and had no idea what he was doing. That's about the most naive thing I'm reading here. So the guy didn't kill Castro. You're right. But he killed 20K or more OTHER people who he claimed were dissidents in 5 years. Bottom line is that without Batista returning to Cuba in 52, Cuba would have had a democratically elected government. You know, the elections that he sabotaged by having the military march in to hand him the reins. That was the beginning of the end of what could have been a prosperous Cuba. So if you want to believe that going from one dictator to another was a worse offense than taking a democratically elected government into a dictatorship .... well have it. And if you want to believe that Batista was an idiot who just happened upon a leadership role in Cuba despite himself ... have at it. But you'd be completely wrong. Here is what JFK said about him: "Fulgencio Batista murdered 20,000 Cubans in seven years ... and he turned Democratic Cuba into a complete police state – destroying every individual liberty. Yet our aid to his regime, and the ineptness of our policies, enabled Batista to invoke the name of the United States in support of his reign of terror. Administration spokesmen publicly praised Batista – hailed him as a staunch ally and a good friend – at a time when Batista was murdering thousands, destroying the last vestiges of freedom, and stealing hundreds of millions of dollars from the Cuban people, and we failed to press for free elections." Nope, he didn't do ANYTHING like Castro. Just a buffoon who had little impact on the life of regular Cubans. By the way, I always find it funny when folks constantly complain about others having an agenda when they disagree (like ONLY you have done in this thread). A hint ..... it's called "deflection." I'm done with you.
Already addressed, but damn, dude... he quite clearly said "rate". In fact he put it in all caps. Stop feeding the notion that all Cuban-Americans are subjective, myopic idiots. B/c the US gov't gave Cubans beaucoup bucks to set up shop in Miami. And b/c the mafiosos knew that their days of pimping, pushing drugs and running casinos were over, so they left. And b/c the monied class were the first ones to lose out economically w/ the nationalization of many industries, so they left. That's why. The reality is that the Revolution was extremely popular, both during and in the immediate aftermath. After less than a year, um... not so much. But it's always been more popular amongst blacks. For good reason.
The relative evil of Batista vs Castro is irrelevant to this topic. Marlins is a business reacting to the feelings of one of its main intended target audiences, the Miami Cuban community, and they happen to be mostly the victims (or children of the victims) of Castro, not of Batista. Regardless of the rate or overall comparison of Cubans killed by Batista and Castro, I doubt that many Cubans in Miami are there because they were escaping from Batista. Still, I wonder what the reaction would have been if Guillen had come out saying "I love Fulgencio Batista".
Let's just leave it up to the original hot-headed Cuban: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRp350znvxE&feature=related"]Ricky Goes Loco! (I Love Lucy - Ricky Needs An Agent) - YouTube[/ame]
You're an ass. Did I ever state Batista was a buffoon? You are the one that did in the above post to support your argument and make it appear as if I was minimizing the harm he did to Cuba. I'm not defending Batista, but you are apparently defending Castro. Let's look at the facts. You are getting your figure of 20,000 Cubans killed by Batista from John F. Kennedy's remarks at a Democratic Party political dinner. I question whether we really know how many were killed. It's entirely possible that Kennedy pulled that number out of a hat to support the subject of his speech that we had done a terrible job of supporting democracy and as a consequence had enabled tyrants to take control in the Americas. If you continue reading his remarks concerning Castro he stated Two years ago - in September of 1958 - bands of bearded rebels descended from Cuba's Sierra Maestra mountains and began their long march on Havana - a march which ended in the overthrow of the brutal, bloody and despotic dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista. The slogans, the manifestos and the broadcasts of this revolution reflected the deepest aspirations of the Cuban people. The promised individual liberty and free elections. They promised an end to harsh police state tactics. They promised a better life for a people long oppressed by both economic and political tyranny. But in the two years since that revolution swept Fidel Castro into power, those promises have all been broken. There have been no free elections - and there will be none as long as Castro rules. All political parties - with the exception of Communist Party - have been destroyed. All political dissenters have been executed, imprisoned, or exiled. All academic freedom has been eliminated. All major newspapers and radio stations have been seized. And all of Cuba is in the iron grip of a Communist-oriented police state. Castro and his gang have betrayed the ideals of the Cuban revolution and the hopes of the Cuban people." Let's addressed your explanation that US immigration policy prior to Castro is the reason that so few Cubans left Cuban. Really? You believe that people would have left in droves if they could get visas or political refugee status from the USA. Let me clue you in, my family was middle class and my mom and grandmother traveled to the USA numerous times prior to January 1, 1959 to visit my cousins while they were attending college in Boston. My dad's sisters routinely traveled from Cuba to the United States and both married American men in the mid 1950's. If things were worse or as bad under Batista as they were under Fidel why weren't people leaving Cuba on boats, make-shift rafts? As to uccarlos remarks, we got nothing from the US government in 1962 when we arrived on June 20, 1962 in Miami and we lived with my aunt Connie for several months. We then moved to NJ in the Fall of 1962 and lived with some other relatives while my mom and dad found work. We left with only several carry on bags from Cuba and the government confiscated all valuables except my dad and mom's wedding bands and her engagement ring. The only checks we got were the pay checks my parents earned working in factories.
My assistant coach on my oldest son's team years back was a kid when the revolucion went down. For years I had very little understanding of what folks from Cuba actually went through. After getting to know the man and hear his family's experience, jeez, keep any "I love ya man!" comments on Fidel Castro to yourself Ozzie. More so when your job is as the manager of the baseball team in Miami.
If he'd been suspended for that remark, all the wingnuts would be screaming about how the liberal sports industry is persecuting and censoring yada yada.
The thing about the revolution and Cuba(ns in Miami) is that it is sooooo seeping in myth that most US-Cubans are pretty out of touch with what went down. The Revolution was extremely popular at the start, and unless you were one of the mafiosos, chances are you were supportive of it. Support waned a bit after the nationalization of certain industries, mainly after it became clear that the revolution was becoming a dictatorship through and through, and that communism was just a facade to justify a massive power grab. And yeah, Castro's a dictator, but he's actually better than many of the US-supported dictators that the rest of us had to put up with. That and the fact that Cubans were granted political asylum makes it difficult for many ppl to feel all that much pity for these exiles. In general, the community is still governed by reactionary morans, but since Elian Gonzalez, more moderate and reasonable voices can be heard. It's just that the first ones to speak up whenever anything happens relating to Cuba, are precisely these reactionaries. It takes a few days for the rational Cubans to chime in and take over debate. My whole thing is that we shouldn't pay a-n-y attention to the reactionary TROLLS b/c they end up drowning out legit voices that have important stories of repression and torture that those of us who pay attention to Cuba never get to hear b/c it's always bitching about how Juanes dared to play a concert in Havana, or how the evil American govt had the audacity to follow international law and unite a 5 year old boy with his father after the mother died at sea (Elian Gonzalez).
I wish to visit Cuba at some point in my life, it seems full of nice people (many of whom i've met here in the States)... but this embargo which has not worked in any meaningful way whatsoever needs to end..and those who support it as a matter of consistency need to never step on a Walmart or buy any Chinese products.. aren't they communist themselves?!?! [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-nd6q6x6rs"]bill maher on castro.mov - YouTube[/ame]
Naw Carlos, sometimes it's best to just trust someone. The ultimatum to this man's father from the communists was you give us your land or your oldest son. This was his experience. He was the oldest son. Thus, I took the man's word on the whole complex history of how it went down para los cubanos circa 1960.
But just be very, very clear that THAT wasn't the experience of the average Cuban. That was the experience of wealthy and (very) white Cubans after the rise of Fidel. But let's just say that such a horrifying story happened in a political and economic context in which the very wealthy abused their power to such a degree that it sparked a revolution. Not saying that your friend was directly a power player in that system, just that he and his family most certainly benefited from it. We've mentioned this before in the thread, but being Black in Cuban pre-Fidel meant abject poverty in a country that actually was relatively advanced. I mean... if petroleum weren't so expensive, there would be no apagones (electricity black outs). Many countries in Latin America to this day lack the infrastructure for modern usage of electricity. And Cuba had the necessary infrastructure way back when. Most ppl won't come out and say this, but it's the truth: you want to know why the Revolution still marches on? B/c Blacks remember extremely well their miserable existence. Nowadays, they're still poor -- just like everybody else except the political class -- but they're not starving like before. Why do you think there are so few Black Cubans in Miami?
Where do you get your information from? The truth is that for the very poor, los campesinos living out in the country, got a positive benefit from the revolution. There standard of living, access to healthcare and education improved. Anyone in the middle class and higher which was not a small percentage of the population in 1959 suffered. Was the revolution welcome initially, absolutely. The people were happy, but the reality is that there was oppression within a year of the revolution. Newspapers were censored and prevented from writing articles critical of the revolution. People were encouraged to rat out there neighbors if they said any thing against the revolution. It was instituted by way of neighbor block committees. It kept people in line and led to numerous arrests. Children in school were encouraged to rat out there parents for making antigovernment statements. My parents were middle class. My dad was a truck driver and my mom an operator for Bell Telephone. We had a nice modern apartment in Habana. But the effects of the revolution were noticeable. People were asked to volunteer to cut sugar cane. If you didn't it was noted and people looked at you differently and you weren't considered to be working for the revolution. You could not stay out of the political change. My dad told me that you could hear the gunshots from firing squads daily when El Che was made commandante of La Cabana prision and fort. Not all the executions were from former Batista supporters. Arrests continued after the revolution and continue to this day. People that spoke out against the revolution were arrested on suspicion of being counter-revoultionary and tried. Many received long prison sentences. In some cases people were arrested fueled by a personal vendetta, you took my girlfriend or cheated me and now I will accuse you of being pro-Batista or counter revolutionary. You didn't need much evidence. Ones word that you were against the revolution was enough. By 1960, it was clear to my parents and many other Cubans that the government was Communist. My dad mentioned that the rhetoric was communist. Everyone was un companero and then they started seeing a lot of Russians showing up in Cuba. As a kid my dad mentioned that I learned and sang the Internationale. The change of course went beyond the nationalization of large industries. Land of homes were declared as being owned by the state and not by individuals. People in high standing in the government-communist party could have people moved from their home for their benefit and convenience. This was a common occurence. When we left Cuba in 1962, my aunt who was an ardent communist accused my dad of being a gusano and a traitor to the revolution. We left with just a suitcase. Everything else stayed behind. My dad also mentioned that if you had anything of value, the milicianos at the airport would confescate valuables like cameras and jewelry. Later in the late 1960's or early 1970's two of my uncles were able to immigrate out of Cuba and they told me stories of shortages and the general incompetence of the revolution. Like once a truck came in with shoes into Habana and people went crazy trying to get shoes. He said there was a shortage of pairs of shoes and many people just walked away with to left shoes. Rationing became common place, something that was not the norm priopr to the revolution. Rationing of food was a farce. Only bear essentials of food were provided and minimally at that. Contrary to what many may argue, the shortages were a result of the systemic issues in the communist-socialist system. There is no incentive to produce more. Cuba was whiter back in the 1950's than it is today, but the change in four decades was a drop from 73% to 65% mostly from the encouragement of the revolution to have the races mix. I find the issue of race being discussed in Cuba amusing when compared to the United States. The United States is much more racist than cuba was pre and post revolution. More later.
Obviously Alberto if your dad was a truck driver and had a nice apartment in Havana then in the revisionist history some want us to believe he must have been a "gusano", a member of the evil Cuban one percent and a Batista minion, so he deserved to be ratted out and have everything stolen from him. Really, Fidel Castro wasn't that bad. And Che was a great man. It's the Cuban exiles who are a bunch of wackos. Repeat it to yourself long enough and maybe you'll start believing it.
Yeah, it's pretty pathetic considering my grand uncle Jose was a politician and was murdered by Batista. Drinking the Koolaid of belief that Castro was a more benevolent dictator flies in the face of my experience and that of my family. We had a number of family members that worked on behalf of the revolution. After a year, the majority were disillusioned by the direction the revolution took. My grand aunt Pura was very active in the revolution and because of disagreements with the path the revolution had taken was placed under house arrest. She left Cuba in exile. As to those that believe it was US policy that caused Castro to embrace communism. I would counter that Fidel had leftist leanings and both Raul and El Che were communists at worst or at least socialists well before they met in Mexico. Now as to the United States, no question the US did not want to deal with Castro and in retrospect the situation could have been made better if the US would have at least made the effort to deal rather than ignore Castro. That said, I believe the die was cast with the path the revolution would take prior to the Granma landing in Oriente province.
You have to remember that the Cuban exile community isn't one for returning to the good old days of Batista. Those types are already senile or in the grave and wouldn't get back what was taken from them. It would be best to take a look at the current Cuban-born crop and see what their initial stance was on the revolution. You would be surprised how many were supporters of the revolution, but fell out when Castro changed his tune.
Uh... Link to anybody saying anything remotely similar? Nuance is a bitch, I know, but since when does, "Damn. Cubans in Miami need to just f'ing chill out" = "OMG Fidel is like Teh Awsum! Best. Dictator. Ever."??? Could you please provide a link to a post in this thread where somebody... anybody... says that Fidel was/is a benevolent dictator? If you can't -- and trust me ... you can't -- either you need meds for your hallucinations or you might just be able to use a bit of objectivity. And trust me on this: you ain't the only Miami-Cuban that suffers from myopia when it comes to Cuba/Fidel. And if you paid attention to what I've been saying, you'd find that after about a year, that's when it went from a Revolution to a Dictatorship and ALL that that entails. Bear in mind, my Spanish father had to escape Cuba 15 months after the fall of Batista. Why? B/c he was a journalist and he didn't follow the party line. And I'll repeat what I said earlier: given the preferential treatment Cubans received upon entry into the US, and given the fact that objectively, there were at least a half dozen Latin American dictatorships that were far worse than Castro, and given the complete level of irrationality of Miami, it's kinda hard to feel all that sorry for your peeps. Which SUCKS, b/c the if y'all would just sit back and be a bit more objective instead of flying off the handle 30 times/year over minutiae... maybe the rest of us would begin to have a bit more compassion.