onehandedtyr had stated that Seba and Jack are basically similar players so I used the stats to show that if they are similar than Seba is the better of the two. I honestly think that the battle lies between Jack and Casey and Seba is practically guaranteed a spot, that is if we are going with just 2 forwards. I am not sure how well the three would work in a 4-3-3.
Jack did it all in half a season while it took Le Toux half a season to score in his most recent year with us. Looking at their numbers, Jack is more efficient, younger, and has a higher ceiling. Why put him back on the bench to stunt his growth? He provided he's ready for the lion's share of the minutes. Jack and Seba are the same player in that they like to play off the ball. They don't too well playing together on the field. We forget that a lot of Seba's numbers come form playing every single minute due to Nowak hating to take him off the field. Jack had 8 goals and 3 assists in 18 starts and 25 total appearances. Jack did this in a far more stagnant offense than Seba ever worked in. Plus, Jack did this at 20, whereas Seba is 28.
I've advocated to play Casey, McInerney, and Le Toux in a 3-man attack on multiple occasions. I'm not saying one should start over the other, but the subject is who is our best 11. Is Casey better than Le Toux right now? If we're basing it on last season, then neither are better than Lionard Pajoy would be if he were still on this team. Hell, Hoppenot statistically would be better than both Le Toux and Casey. Are you suggesting that Hoppenot is better than those two players based on what he did last year, or we going by a whole body of work? I'm going strictly on numbers here because when you have a striker, you want a striker that can score. Without providing any names, can you tell me which of these two players you prefer, just by strictly looking at the numbers? They are both strikers. If we're looking and judging strikers, we should be judging them by their goal scoring capability, just like you would judge a goalkeepers ability to keep the ball out of the net. Player A - 15 goals, 9 assists Player B - 13 goals, 3 assists If you had your choice between these two players for a best XI list, which player would you put on there?
But we have more information than that, which is what actually helps us make a useful decision. Leaving out information is what you do on a first date to get a girl to go home with you, but chances are it won't lead to a wife. I mean, sure, if you try with enough different ladies, you're bound to get it right eventually, but in this scenario I'll take the long haul over the one night stand, and stick with Jack.
Anyone who has Keon in the best 11 must be mistaken. I have only seen two or three plays a season that are a shine point from him in the past two years. Most players do something valuable every game or every other game but Keon I just do not see it. Only thing I like about him is I can call him Neon Keon (hes not even fast).
I'm really intrigued by both of these lineups and would love to see it in action. I'm not 100% sold on any formation relying on Adu though. Is this the year Torres steps up and becomes what Freddy has failed to give us so far?
You are greatly oversimplifying things too try to prove your point. Casey si the go to starter because his skillset is radically different from Le Toux and Jack. Also, a 3 man attack will not work since Seba, Jack, and (this is purely a guess based off his play style) Casey can't play wide. Soccer doesn't work like FIFA. You can't just put anyone anywhere. I won't even respodn to the Hopp comment because it has no baring on or relevance to this conversation. One striker is a 20 year old with the potential to be a top MLS goalscorer, and the other is a journeyman who lacks consistency, based on his lack of goals last year and his inability to score them in the first half of '11. Seriously, if Seba is such a great goal scoring threat, why did he get benched and traded by New York? Why did he play so poorly last year? Why did it he miss so many easy goals in '11? You need to ignore yoru bias and love for Le Toux and lok at this team from a more objective status. Maybe, keyword: maybe, Serba is better than Le Toux right now, but playinh Jack means he will quickly eclipise Jack's ability. If you want to pull a Nowak and let our youh rot on the bench, great, but what is the poitn of havign them? Why not just trade Jack now if you don't want to start him? And I'd take 20 year-old player B who nearly matched the goal total in about half the games and far, far, far fewer shots.
Hard to do something valuable every game when you are only playing in half of them. Keon has never been given a fair run in a consistent position. They've moved him all over the pitch (even played him at left back in times of major utility) and never given him a fair shot at really cementing himself or settling into the side. Keon is a calming presence who maintains possession for our side, has a decent curling cross and curling dead ball that creates danger--- and hes 6'1".
First off I only say this because the typing seems different then your usual posts, but have you been drinking (typing/wording only not your point)? To your points. DeRo was traded by the pink cows so using them in argument is faulty logic. While some may have an affinity towards a player and that may have them show bias towards that player over another it is also possible that you can show a bias against a player because you don't like him. I do like both Jack and Le Toux but if I had to pick right now between the two I would take Seba. It is mostly because he is a better all around player at this stage. Seba plays harder, has more versatility, has more passing ability, has better defensive skills and his stamina is unbelievable. Jack definitely has potential and improved last year. Started off the Hack era strong, played poorly for a little stretch and then finished strong after earning back the start. There are still things he needs to get better at like controlling his temper (a lot of that is youth and he is not the only one), working back to the ball particularly when he gets in an offside position and finding more consistency which comes from playing more.
I can hardly understand what you're trying to say here, but I'll give it a go. You say that soccer isn't like FIFA. OK, then what happens when you take a player who was successful at the striker position, and move him to, say, I don't know, right midfield because you can't play him as a striker, the position where he most successful, since you have too many players at that position, and this player's CV says that he has played right midfield for other teams? You would think that his production would go down because the player is being played out of a position where he was most successful. It would be like, I don't know, moving Gabriel Farfan from midfield to left back, wouldn't it? You would be taking a player from one position where he's successful, and moving him to a vaguely familiar position because you need to plug a hole. You're right in that soccer isn't like FIFA, but you might want to suggest the same thing to any soccer coach ever in history who has plugged players into different roles because they tried to or needed to make something work. Also, if you had bothered to read what I wrote, I made no mention of a love for Le Toux. I said purely from a statistical standpoint that Le Toux is a better scorer than McInerney. I mean, we judge strikers based on their scoring ability, correct? Would Wondolowski receive the attention that he receives if he only bags 8 goals a season? Most people would call that mediocre. You seem to know who player B is, but do you know who player A is? Player A can be absolutely any player out there. What if it was Fabian Espindola? Maybe Will Bruin. Maybe Kenny Cooper. Maybe nobody. Maybe somebody. It surely isn't Le Toux, though, because he's scored 33 goals in the last three seasons, so it seems that your distaste for Le Toux drives your feelings, whereas I let the numbers influence my decisions. I want a striker that can score. I don't care if he takes 40,000 shots, so long as he puts the ball into the back of the net enough to will my team to victory, and goals scored is the only stat that matters in the difference between winning and losing. In terms of Best XI (which is what this thread is really about), your best eleven striker should have the ability to score goals, and Le Toux has done that when played in a striker position, which is where he will be come March, so, for me, that's my best XI striker.
Isn't this true for a lot of the players at our club, both past and present? We can make the same argument for: McInerney (until the last 2/3 of this past season), Adu, the Home Growns, Hoffman, Okugo, Martinez, Jacobson, Mwanga, Salinas, etc.. Not picking, but when has Gabe played Midfield for the Union? He barely, if ever saw the field until the Harvey trade. To be fair his switch to LB hasn't been a complete disaster either. While it's not ideal, Gabe has grown into the position and is one of the better LB's in MLS. From a statistical standpoint, yes at a glance Seba has scored more goals then Jack Mac. It should be pointed out, however, that Sebas' production has decreased each of the past 3 seasons (despite having better players around him). Let's hope that he hasn't peaked.......... Jack Mac is only 20, and proved this past season that he can score goals. He scored 8 goals on a team that struggles mightily to create clear cut scoring chances let alone shots on target (and sadly this is a gross understatement). I hope Jack looks at this challenge laid out in front him by Hackworth, and puts his head down, works his @$$ off, and keeps his spot in the 11. I'd hate to see Jack end up like Mwanga, where lots of promise and potential were stifled by a lack of consistent playing time.
Mwanga played a majority of the first season, and much of the 2nd after the Ruiz trade. He just isn't as good as the hype.
While I do agree with this, he also was jerked in and out of the lineup by Nowak, and played at times, out of position in Midfield. Outside of that I agree with you. With Mwanga the question isn't his talent, it's his drive and desire to be not just a professional athlete but reach his potential and play consistently. Unfortunately this is a struggle that the majority of athletes do not overcome.
Everyone seems to be misunderstanding what I'm saying. We're talking about a best XI here. We're not talking about the upcoming season on who should start or anything like that. It's a fantasy thing. People are reading way too much into what this topic is about (wouldn't be BigSoccer if we didn't, I suppose), which is which player you would have in your best XI. I'm not advocating starting one over the other. I'm not creating some kind of striker controversy. I'm merely stating that, statistically, based on goal scoring numbers alone, not taking anything else into account, just focusing solely on the times the ball has been put into the back of the net, Le Toux would be in my my current Union best XI. Just like I would prefer seeing Ray Gaddis at LB next season doesn't mean that he would be in my personal best XI because I don't have a left back in my best XI because I prefer a 3-5-2 because that is where I feel the eleven best players are, but for RIGHT NOW, AS OF THIS SECOND, Le Toux would be MY CHOICE to be A striker in a Best XI of Union players on the roster right now solely because of what he has done in a Union jersey. McInerney might be the second coming of Jeff Cunningham for all we know, but for MY best XI, I choose Le Toux as a striker.
Hard to do yes, but majority of players contribute positily. I dont see him a negitive or positive aspect. Just there. 95% of the team can do the curling cross etc that are not 6-1. and if I am current (Please correct me if I am wrong). Jack Mac is in the 5fts and has more headers. Size DOES NOT FULLY contribute to success in the box for winning headers. *Jack also had more time in the games
Nope. No drinking. I just didn't feel like editing it since I'm feeling lazy post-finals. Also, you can't compare the playing style of Seba and Jack. While I admittedly called them the same player, that was due to their tendency to rely on off the ball movement rather than holding the ball up, meaning they more or less occupy the same role on the field. Regardless, Seba is more a a defensive forward that runs around like a chicken with his head cut off. Jack is a poacher. You won't get that defensive effort and hustle from him because it's not what he is supposed to do. His primary goal is to score us goals, not win back possession. That's why we have 10 other players. Seba is arguably better now, though Jack had the better year last year, but if Jack played so well on a shitty offense in only half a season, I'd rather give him this season to see how he progresses. Besides, Jack is a more clinical finisher than Seba, something we need badly right now.
But soccer doesn't revolve around stats like baseball as you can manipulate them any way you like. If I gave you the choice between two strikers who in their last season for this team put up these numbers, who would you pick? Player A: a goal every 203.75 minutes with 19 shots on goal out of 42 attempts for a 45.24% shot on target percentage. This was done in 1630 minutes. Player B: a goal every 278.11 minutes with 48 shots on goal out of 90 attempts for a 24.69% shot on target percentage. This was done in 3060 minutes. While Seba may have more goals due to seeing far more time, Jack is far more efficient with his opportunities and minutes. Which of these two do you trust to put the ball in the net?
That is why I have stated previously that the true battle is not between Seba and Jack but Jack and Casey. Seba is the most likely of the three to be a 'definite' starter who gets the other spot in a 2 forward lineup is up in the air. I wouldn't mind seeing both Jack and Seba up top together as I believe they could help each other. One will do something and the defense reacts and misses the other. I don't have enough first hand viewing of Casey to say either he or Jack is better and would help us more. Now this could all be for naught if we go with all three up top in a 4-3-3. Then the only question is who is where and how well will it work.
How is the score of the game kept: goals scored or shot percentage? So long as it's goals scored, I think I'd rather have the player who scores goals.
So Jack? The man who scores goal a in fewer minutes and is more likely to finish his chance? The problem for me is that I expect a Seba and Jack pairing to look a lot like Ruiz and Seba. It didn't really work because neither want to hold the ball up. I think we'll see their inability to play together quickly. Also, I don't know how well a 4-3-3 will play when Jack, Seba, and Casey all hate playing wide.
The only way I could see a 3 forward system for us is by using a triangle where 2 are up top with a withdrawn striker (actually think of all our current players this fits Adu best) or one on top of two (maybe Casey fits that top striker role best?). You would then use your mids for out wide play and the DM would not be used a lot in the attack. Sadly we would then have to bench either Okugo or Carroll.