Other Teams Thread Pt.XII [R]

Discussion in 'Korea' started by Chingoo, Sep 12, 2013.

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  1. Akimize

    Akimize Member

    Aug 29, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I agree. Giggs makes sense as a caretaker for the remainder of a season that has marginal meaning (do they still have a shot at a Europa spot?) but I think we're going to see someone with bucketloads of successful experience, and probably someone from the continent at the helm come August.
     
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  2. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    six points back of spurs but game in hand so yes.
     
  3. Gayageum

    Gayageum Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 22, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    It wouldn't be too bad of an option for Giggs to be the caretaker until the end of next season if they need time. Ferguson's known to have all of his players, esp. his 90s babies, to learn and be on the managerial train early in their career, so Giggs, at worst, will probably produce similar results to Moyes and at best, perhaps a top 4 or 5 which isn't bad considering the steady rise of City and more recently Liverpool.
     
  4. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    It would be ok if players weren't aging/leaving/getting worse. The problem is that there are HUGE holes to fill and big money going to be spent this summer and you don't want an interim manager doing it, and in particular one with limited coaching experience and no transfer experience.

    Which is why I don't envy the new permanent manager's job at all. Trying to patch lots of holes in one window is hard (see Spurs) not to mention totally overhauling coaching staff, tactics, etc. and keeping superstars like RVP happy.
     
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  5. Gayageum

    Gayageum Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 22, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Good point on the transfer market, though I have a feeling Giggs won't do badly in the transfer market. United is in dire need for an extra LB, CM, and CB, which shouldn't be too overwhelming considering the plethora of players that would be available post-WC.

    In regards to the Spurs, Levy should've entrusted AvB with his transfer targets instead of intervening and "offering" suggestions. So many mediocre purchases that completely dissolved 'Bale's fund'.
     
  6. wetcrispy

    wetcrispy Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 5, 2007
    hollywoo
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Transfers are gonna be tough for united esp with the Moyes upheavel and no cl next season. They would have to pay a premium for top quality players and the market for the positions they need aren't too deep in quality. United has the money to spend but the glazers' track record shows they don't spend too extravegantly. Luke shaw seems to be the likely lb they will target but he'll have a young english player premium and there are only a handful of bright cbs who are looking to move to a top club. United not being in the cl will hurt their chances in that market.

    My solution would be to raid soton and get shaw, schneiderlin, fonte or lovren. They're proven pl players and won't cost as much as starlets from the continent.
     
  7. takeuchi

    takeuchi Member+

    Jan 20, 2013
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Doubt the new manager is expected to overhaul in one window.

    Anyways, the pressure is completely off. Goal is to regain the CL spot (not a demand or expected as Moyes faced), and without the hassle of Europe (Europa League), he can work with a small squad to keep the changes to minimum.
     
  8. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    The overhaul is being forced not expected. Vidic, Giggs himself, Rio, Evra; a bunch of players going into final year of contracts; and a total lack of wide players; and throw in RVPs supposed release clause and its a pile of holes for the new manager to fill in.

    And look at today's share price. There will be lots of financial pressure to get into CL. Nor do I believe that the average manure fan has hit bottom expectations wise.
     
  9. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Many of those post WC players will be tired, overpriced and potential flashes in the pan.

    As for Giggs, its just too hard to predict and I have a hard time thinking that he's actually spent the time researching non PL targets given his multitude of tasks so far.

    As an aside, its good to remember this article on managers. My personal view is that managers need three skills: personal, tactical and roster management. And there are too many jokers who get by only on the first... and even that only in the context of handling the media.
     
  10. takeuchi

    takeuchi Member+

    Jan 20, 2013
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    #2385 takeuchi, Apr 22, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014

    1. Cleverley's the only one.
    2. They have enough attacking players who can play wide (nor a classic winger will be needed if Van Gaal is expected to take over).
    3. They have few talented youngsters (ex: Nick Powell) who can easily replace the expected departures of Young, Valencia.. and perhaps even Nani (Zaha too.. not sure what they will do with him).
    4. Yes, they need to replace Vidic, Giggs, and Rio... but they don't need to purchase 3 players to replace each of them. Evra can be re-signed for 1 or 2 more yrs as veteran back-up (if they were to get Luke Shaw) and they only need 1 CB with Evans, Jones, and Smalling all capable.


    I mean, the way I see it.. of which, I agree with Gayageum. CM (Kroos & Carvalho), CB, and LB is all they need heading in to next season. Major overhaul isn't necessary over the summer..

    edit: btw, what release clause in RvP?

    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/feb/26/robin-van-persie-manchester-united-future

     
  11. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    1. A quick google search (MEN) says Carrick, Fletcher, Valencia, aka two starters from the weekend and one sub.

    2. I think they've shown themselves to be only ok to pretty poor out wide and thus their problems this year.

    3. Not every youngster is gonna pan out and is still major change. (I think Zaha will be back in the Championship next year somehow).

    4. Good luck getting Kroos to leave to a non CL side with questions all around, and they need a top tier CH if they ever have aspirations of getting back up, and those three are what should be depth not starters.
     
  12. takeuchi

    takeuchi Member+

    Jan 20, 2013
    Club:
    Liverpool FC

    1. ahh, right.. bunch of players. for a sec, i read it as bunch of young players. Fletcher (as if he played at all for 2+ yrs), Valencia and etc isn't a huge loss. Carrick can be easily extended for another yr if Man Utd wishes to keep him.

    2. Man Utd weren't poor because they had issues in wide position. It's due to pathetic tactic, poor midfield & ageing defense to support their attacking players.

    3. Kroos stated he is open to joining Man Utd (remember, Man Utd can beat most clubs in wages they can offer.. not to mention, many of the traditional big clubs are in slumps). I agree, Man Utd do need one top tier CH/leader in their defensive rank (Evans, Smalling, and Jones all excelled when Vidic was paired with them at his prime).
     
  13. TaegukWarrior

    TaegukWarrior Member+

    Jan 12, 2008
    Miami
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    it's going to be ********ing weird seeing giggs in the manager box lmao
     
  14. Gayageum

    Gayageum Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 22, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Not sure that will be their concern honestly. Their pedigree is unique and that alone will be enough to attract top talent.
     
  15. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    1. I don't think they'd be huge losses except there really isn't anyone to take their roles. Its hard to look at their lineup and see it as anything but immensely imbalanced talent wise where everything outside of GK and attack is a giant question mark.

    2. See 1. I also think as Klopp does that putting central players like Kagawa out wide diminishes their quality. Yes, many attacking players are comfortable anywhere in the front 4 spots (even Klopps own Reus), but I don't think that any of these guys are (not dissimilar to the varying success Wenger has had with his conversions).

    3. I think at the end of the day, Kroos will have more than a second thought about entering that firestorm, the immense pressure of trying to save that s****y 11, and the fact that instead of Robben and Ribery et al, he'll have the likes of Nani to work with. Bayern pays well too and I imagine Manure is being used a salary benchmark in negotiations.

    And even if he does go, I don't think he fixes any of their problems.
     
  16. takeuchi

    takeuchi Member+

    Jan 20, 2013
    Club:
    Liverpool FC

    FW: Rooney, RvP, Chicharito, Welbeck (who can also play as winger to add pace)
    attacking players: Mata, Kagawa, Janujaz (better in the wing over #10 position atm), Nick Powell, and maybe Nani

    that's not bad at all. if Van Gaal is the next manager as expected, you can easily see Kagawa/Mata be played like Coutinho, Janujaz as Sterling and so forth.

    Top CB, quality CM to play next to Carrick, and LB is all they need during summer. They can re-evaluate during winter to make further changes based on progress but major overhaul isn't needed... even if Carrick, Cleverley and etc have 1 yr left on their contracts (honestly, better for Man Utd imo....)
     
  17. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Anyway, not gonna argue too much about manure except that I beileve that the team is performing just about where I'd expected them to talent wise. I believe that Moyes' issues were not identifying and fixing things to make things better, or getting the team to perform above their expected levels. SAF had somehow managed to get great season performances out of a pretty mediocre squad (compared to other top squads; link to whoscored review).

    That said this team is pretty mediocre across the board. Even their "strength" of attacking players compare poorly to those of Man City, Chelsea or Liverpool (or RM/Bayern/etc). And even if one were to think that talent wise that they stack up, I think the whole is far less than the sum of these parts due to the fact that they're all too similar.
     
  18. takeuchi

    takeuchi Member+

    Jan 20, 2013
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Yea, I do disagree. Their attacking players aren't poor as I stated above. I do think they stack up well talent wise compared to other top teams. Coutinho is great but he isn't better over say.. Mata (best player for Chelsea last season). Suarez & Sturridge is great (Suarez as the best player) but Man Utd have superior depth compared to us (Aspas?? :rolleyes:). We don't even have natural wide player except Sterling (even he is being played centrally lately) and Moses (completely useless).

    Tottenham on the other hand.. well, they are flat out mediocre across the board (Arsenal isn't all that impressive either).
     
  19. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    If Welbeck had a different passport, people would have given up on him already at least in terms of top squad capability. Kagawa as stated has been on the margins for two managers now and is third in depth chart for the CAM role. Chicharito is an incredibly limited player. Nani? :rolleyes: Powell is unproven at this level. Does united have good depth? Maybe but as I've argued already, mostly at the CAM/CF spots and as you've argued not really relevant given their lack of CL football.

    So you have RVP, an out of position Mata (who Chelsea discarded albeit with personality issues), Rooney who isn't really world class as CAM, and a youngster. Three of whom like to work the exact same area and have shown far less ability when moved out wide.

    Are they terrible? No, far from it and in fact good but its not really enough to overcome significant deficiencies elsewhere.
     
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  20. takeuchi

    takeuchi Member+

    Jan 20, 2013
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I think you are harsh on Welbeck. Look at Liverpool for example... Sturridge (Chelsea & Man City reject.. decent spell at Bolton) & Coutinho (Inter Milan reject) changed the dynamic of our play with Brendan Rodgers. I do think Welbeck is talented & capable manager can bring the best out of him.

    Chicharito is limited but he knows how to score. Kagawa, Mata, and Rooney can all play together..... they showed flashes of it this season & Moyes was just inept to figure it out. He bought Mata to play as out and out winger.. the same way as Kagawa. Also, this is the same team that destroyed Leverkusen in Champions League (2nd in the Bundesliga at the time) and were group stage winners.

    edit: I can easily see Man Utd regain their CL spot next season (Wenger might quit Arsenal & Spurs are.. well.. Spurs). Btw, how does RvP like to work in the same area as Mata?
     
  21. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Welbeck is above average. Period. Chicharito can score yes but he's a black hole in every other aspect.

    Leverkusen has shown itself to be hardly the defensive force now have they? And manure struggled against mighty Olympiakos.

    As for their finish next year, they're obviously in the mix for that last CL but that is so dependent on filling in their holes. And thus my point, you cannot rely on Giggs without any experience to be able to find the next Vidic that they so desperately need, find the right guy to link defense and attack, and build a tactical system to take a whole bunch of central players and make it work despite being self-admittedly a 4-4-2 guy.

    The three of them like to work the central attacking area. RVP likes working back in particular which causes problems. Mata is smart enough to play wider but he's far from his best there. IMO moyes should just sold off rooney (and Kagawa). Could someone make it work? perhaps but I dont think it will come easily.
     
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  22. takeuchi

    takeuchi Member+

    Jan 20, 2013
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I didn't say anything about relying on Giggs. I want Giggs because.. well.. as you stated, he isn't the right guy & I want Man Utd to continue their downfall. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

    But a manager like Van Gaal.. who has great reputation of rebuilding a club & with their array of quality attacking players IMO, can be dangerous again (which is why I want Giggs as permanent manager for Man Utd). Rafa Benitez got Hazard, Oscar, and Mata to work (supported by old Lampard, old defense *or error prone one in Luiz*, and old Cole *whats the difference between he and Evra?*). Considering they only have BPL to focus on next season, the task isn't as great or huge upheaval as you make it ought to be. As for Welbeck, I don't see large difference between he and Sturridge. Sturridge is much clinical finisher but Welbeck is better in other areas (not to mention, he became a victim of RvP purchase.. being played out wide & often playing the PJS role since last season).
     
  23. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    I'm not the biggest sturridge fan but theres a lot of bias from the bolton days. A good team playing well makes everything work better for sure but much of his success is his complementary play to suarez. And thats Welbecks problem, there are guys who are better all around at the big clubs and guys who are better at 1-2 things than Welbeck who may be worse overall players but more of a fit.

    As for united, I think we are finding out and will continue to find out that SAF actually left the cupboard pretty bare here covered by bandaids (aka Giggs, Rio, Scholes) and such things like RVP form as well as the bumbling of the other top clubs.

    Anyway, tired of talking about a team I don't care for. And a team which I clearly have low expectations for. Can a new manager use the SAF formula for success with limited overhaul? Perhaps. But as a Liverpool fan should know, sometimes it takes time to work these issues out.
     
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  24. takeuchi

    takeuchi Member+

    Jan 20, 2013
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    He's still a good player to have as 1st or 2nd option off the bench. I personally believe he's much better all-around player over Giroud.. who happens to start for Arsenal (and he's 23). The goal is to make a return to Champions League.. not to win the title. Big holes, overhaul or whatever for Man Utd is greatly exaggerated. Evans can regain his 2012/2013 form (Skrtel regained his when he looked destined to depart) and you can win without great full-backs (Flannagan is great surprise but he isn't great, Johnson's been shite for past 2 season, Enrique is.. well Enrique, and Cissokho is garbage). So yea, if they can find the "right" manager (big IF of course), sort out their midfield (one quality CM to play next to Carrick), and one quality leader in the back..... they are a team I'll be fearing again next season (Bayern Munich were able to do so after 1 season out of Champions League with 2 or 3 additions the next season when they looked so inept in 2006/2007 season).

    edit: Btw, I agree. Discussion about Man Utd lasted too long....
     
  25. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Final point: Poyet is now the 11th longest serving PL manager.

    so ignore all the bull**** about foreign owners or moyes not getting enough time. All but a very small handful of managers survive.
     

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