Orlando City stadium construction thread

I apologize. I was just basing it off our history and figured you hadn't read my earlier posts. It is also why i prefaced my post with "if"

 

I never really saw the whole "help us design the stadium" thing as very problematic.

I figured they are about ready to start construction, and so I would assume what is still open to change is relatively minor organizational and layout details. ie: Type of seats, width of sections, location of types of concessions, aesthetic design issues.

I mean, the capacity and flow calculations, particularly in the context of a safety review, have to be done by this point, so you can't really go messing with anything major, even if it does not affect engineering.

But then again, perhaps they have not gotten beyond conceptual design and were planning on delaying till 2016 regardless.

Either way, it means more collaboration and a better design. Great news all round, our delayed gratification aside.

 

Kelo v. City of New London

Don't count on ED used here.

Prior to Kelo, seven states specifically prohibited the use of eminent domain for economic development except to eliminate blight: Arkansas, Florida, Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Washington. As of June 2012, 44 states had enacted some type of reform legislation in response to the Kelo decision. Of those states, 22 enacted laws that severely inhibited the takings allowed by the Kelo decision, while the rest enacted laws that place some limits on the power of municipalities to invoke eminent domain for economic development. The remaining eight states have not passed laws to limit the power of eminent domain for economic development
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The Kelo case pissed off a lot of people, essentially giving a municipal government the right to condemn & seize property for purposes other than public benefit. And no, a soccer team is not a public benefit. The outcome of Kelo as noted above and in the link is that most states have restricted the use of ED under the Kelo decision, virtually reversing it. Florida already prohibited it's use for economic development (read: Private Benefit) and under the current climate, it's better to just negotiate with the Church of Brother Joe in Eternal Love of the Painted Desert, because even though we all know the church is pulling a screwjob, no one is going to support erosion of private property rights.

 

Section widths are governed by code, so the fans have no input. Seating types will be more a function of what the owner wants so they can up charge for it. Aesthetics? Not really either since design by public committee never really makes it past the "we want a blue stadium" level.

In reality, "fans" will have near zero input into design since most of their "wants" are dumb stuff that can't be accommodated.

 

What? not true at all.


Check this episode of "The Big question show":

There are quite a number of areas where supporter input is of actual value.

http://nasn.tv/2012/the-big-question-episode-11/

 

Mostly, this is stuff that's already going to happen or is of very limited "design". Fans / Users / Etc don't get hardly the "input" that they get told they are getting.

We want terraces!

Sorry

We want Sound Amplifying Roofs, because it's proper!

Ok, whatever you need to believe


We want a seating rake of X%

You'll get what allows the most cost efficient structure.

 

You have a poor imagination; there are lots of smaller details that are trivial to designers but important if not essential to fans. Many of which are beyond (or beneath?) the purview of architects.

I’m a planner, so concepts like public review, town hall meetings and stakeholder input on design and planning issues are part of my DNA. I am aware architects have a certain natural arrogance, if not contempt, towards these things .

Sure, stuff like design input on roof extent or sightlines is outside the purview of public comment. Ditto with SRO, safe standing, terraces or bleachers. But canvassing fan interest and preference can be useful if multiple options are viable. For example knowing the level of support for GA among SG’s may sway design in one direction or another. Owners/developers have a tendency to speak "for" the people, when the really shouldn't.


The ESG guy on that podcast had some interesting points and experiences.

The SG didn’t learn about the very low height of walls to the field until it was done, which was unlike the very tall walls of Giants stadium. Just knowing this earlier would have made life easier for their transition particularly for the dimension of their banners.

The urinals of RBA didn't have dividers and had trivial design choices that could have been different.

There initially were no water fountains, which is another trivial request the SG’s cared about.

One humorous issue is that they are emotionally attached to their section number (101), to the extent that some members had it tattooed. The team unthinkingly renumbered the sections in RBA, which was not appreciated, and they ended up reverting it after the fact.


I mean, I’m browsing around various comments sections and there are a few types of input and ideas that I imagine the FO values.

Have the scoreboard include MLS-wide scores.

Input on organization of transit and street ingress.

Integrating supporter symbols and design into the stadium.

Various fan service ideas, drawing inspiration from other facilities eg: free access to cold water and ice.


That’s just a quick search. I imagine fans with actual expertise and good ideas would send them to the team directly, instead of commenting on boards.

 

You assume too much, I'm a planner as well, AICP and everything . Comprehensive planning, capital improvements projects, plan review, code compliance and CDBG/Neighborhood Redevelopment. I've done more than my share of canvassing neighborhoods to get residents to show up to meetings so they can get their voice in and it isn't just the developers or the angry cranks that always show up that want the city/town to dial back to the good old days.

The architecture market was shit when I got out of school so I picked up the M. RCPL and did that exclusively for a while before I lucked into a job where I get to do both. It made me a much better Architect and I think Arch school made me a better than average planner as well. You are correct that there is a level of arrogance (which I don't think is natural, but taught) that you see develop in Architects over their career, but the same is true for planners, especially planning directors, but you kind of have to do that since developers are on average, lying dicks.

Support for GA isn't really important since it's highly restricted by code, given the numerous crush deaths that led to those restrictions.

Owners/Developers are the ones writing the checks and taking the risk, so they sort of have a right to a certain amount of voice, with certain reasonable restrictions. Of course, developers have quietly crafted the fine art of manufacturing public consent and sadly, too many planners have helped them create what is increasingly a bland and near uniform built environment. People say they want diversity in design, but 90% of the time, they want just enough detail to tell their house from their neighbor's and if someone gets too out of "bounds", you can bet they'll be down at your shop complaining that their property values are being lowered by the out of character design.

Man, you pick up "european stadium design" elements and you still make those dicks unhappy. I swear they would complain if they were going to be hung with a new rope.

I question at what point they were brought into the process. Urinal screens are required in almost all situations for new construction unless the fixture count is very low.

Fountains are required by plumbing code, if the A/E firm or their M/E/P Engineer missed that, it makes me question their competency. Or since RedBull has this near exact stadium built in 2-3 other places, they simply wanted to replicate the design in the US, but someone didn't want or chose not to adapt it to US/local codes. Given how RB GMbH failed on the land ownership issue, this would not shock me at all.

Owner decision. Not design

That requires a high degree of filtering out the things that can be done from the stuff that can't be. I'm sure you as a planner have had to "plannersplain" to some clown why there are so many handicap parking spots at some business, because they never see anyone parked in them.

Programming issue, by and large. Owner responsibility, not design.

Any designer or owner who isn't considering this already is probably incompetent.

A nice detail, but that's an Owner/User negotiated decision which could easily become irrelevant or dated if the SG dissolves and reforms.

Someday, fans/users/customers will come to grips with the fact that nothing is free and that they pay for it with their ticket & concession prices.

And if the owner wants to incorporate that 5% of good out of the chaff, that's fine. I can show them what it will look like and tell them what to expect cost wise as well as show them how it will or won't integrate with other decisions.

But at the end of the day, while some amount public comment/input is fine, the majority is irrelevant, simply because the public has no liability for the input they offer. They may want this or that and may even be vocal enough to convince an owner/developer that they won't come unless some trivial detail is added, but when the owner gets banged in plan review and that element has to be redesigned, costing the Owner money, or some fan driven design issue is implemented and that causes a particular finish material to fail, the Owner doesn't come after the "public" or the customers, they come after the Architect & his/her liability insurance.

 

I like how AEG is still having a hand in helping to shape the league. (ICON was a joint venture between AEG and the Romani group).

 

i don't think anyone counts on erectile dysfunction.

 

In that video you almost expect to see Godzilla in the frame pushing the building over.

 

Nope - He's never really messed with the Chinese. It's the Japanese that he hates

 

Erectile Dysfunction / Eminent Domain

Either way, you're losing something

 

You're saying Godzilla is a racist?

 

Selectively.

 

A racist is selective by definition. (This message brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department.)

 

I didn't know extortion was a Christian value!

 

History says otherwise.

 

More drama.

 

I would be kind of pissed too, except the easy answer is that the Orlando ownership group does not own the Citrus Bowl or any other venue, so economically it does not make sense to rent from them. Plus Citrus Bowl does not have any of these "magic" downsizing technology that Atlanta seems to have.

But yes, I would have preferred Atlanta have its own SSS.

 

The City Council said last year that making the Citrus Bowl 'soccer friendly' was going to cost $107m ON TOP of the $200m renovation that they had already planned. They decided a SSS for $85m was cheaper.

 

Good catch. So just some click bait article.

 

Please watch this. Every time I see one of your posts I immediately think of this bit from Brian Regan.

 

Will catch it later. Regan is hilarious and woefully underrated

 

Neither is arson, but I'm not above it