Only NY Cosmos and Orlando City should make sense as the 20th team

Now, you're just making shit up. Pitiful.

My "idea" is that MLS is not going to turn away suitable expansion candidates, should they arise, to fulfill some self-imposed "moratorium" that nobody in a position to know (i.e., NOT your fancy bloggers) has ever said actually exists.

Can you make a point without distorting what I posted? I ask, because so far, you haven't.

That would be best, considering that you can't seem to address what I post (as opposed to what you seem to want to pretend that I post) with anything approaching substance.

But, have fun continuing to argue against points that I don't make. It's a lot easier.

 

In my opinion only, I just don't buy it. The only existing team that David Beckham would have any interest in at all would be the LA Galaxy. And as all of us should know by now, Beckham has announced that he will not be moving his family from the Los Angeles area. It is my understanding that only current factor holding him from signing his new contact is the clause pertaining to his ownership of a MLS expansion team, he plans to exercise upon his retirement. This alone may force the league beyond 20.

 

And yet...he cashed out. Rather than stay in it for the fun, fame and prestige. I don't know Kemsley, and maybe you do. But if you folks are going to say the Cosmos will be an exponentially more profitable option than New York Gothams or whatever, you're kind of making my point. Unless Kemsley is a humanitarian who just wanted to give you what you've been missing since 1985.

I keep hearing about this ball boy person. I never said you didn't have legacy people. Hell, we're not all that old, those of us with actual NASL memories.

Wait, I'm not seeing how one has anything to do with the other. I'm sure you, living there, have quite the sense of what it means. I just think you overplay what it means to everybody else.

I don't drink, but I'm glad to visit with you. Love New York. But I wasn't referring to all y'all in the first place. Sorry to have given that impression. So let me revise and extend my comments to only include the people you yourself have to know you have in your ranks, those who froth at the mouth and who don't express themselves as rationally as you do.

We're all soccer people. It's all good.

 

Well there's only one LA Galaxy so unless AEG is going to sell him a piece of that there's no possible expansion team that gives him anything different from any existing franchise that may be sold. And he wouldn't be the first owner to not live in the same state as the team that he owns. It just depends on how hands on he wants to be, so if that's the case and he wants to stay in LA, then LA would be the best option for him to say the truth. But really what's the difference to him between buying Atlanta or a piece of DC or the other half of Houston. That really would make a bit of sense for him. Could you imagine the star power of a David Beckham/ODLH partnership? And it would have been sold to him by the ppl that he already has a relationship with, AEG. These are options.

 

The only I have to add to this subject is that is it assumed that he is scouting locations for his franchise and if is reported (old news) that he likes either Atlanta, San Diego, Miami or Montreal. Well Montreal is already taken. But, in my opinion you can add Las Vegas (since it is close to LA) to the list if the Henderson stadium is built.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-League-final-Thatll-4-000.html#ixzz1EFWOFDac


http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/69/t...to-re-sign-david-beckham-still-a-long-way-off-

 

Yes but according to most of the press on that side of the pond he was also going to be playing his football in Paris this season. They're half a world away from him and get most of their news on him from friends and associates. San Diego and Las Vegas would make the most sense, but I remember the MTL rumors and none of those made sense especially since Joey Saputo wasn't looking for new investment. Still, outside of Atlanta, none of those markets are in the South where ppl feel MLS must expand now. They also had him possibly getting involved with the Cosmos btw. I think that it's even money that he buys into an existing franchise as an expansion team. More likely actually since I don't think we're going to see another expansion after #20 for a few years.

But Beckham is very far from doing anything at this point since he also reportedly wants a 2 year deal from LA Galaxy. He want's to play for two more years so we may be looking at 2014 before he's ready toexcercise his right to buy a franchise.

 

You may be right, but I think if it's an existing franchise it's the Galaxy with minor ownership. As too San Diego and Las Vegas, DG has mentioned on more than once that they would like to add a additional franchise to the either the Southwest or Southern California. As to the South don't forget he also has been rumored liking Miami. So, I would still put my money with an expansion team.

 

Miami would make more sense than Atlanta personality-wise. It's the type of city to fit his image. But I also have to think that he's not going to be the majority owner of any franchise that he buys. He's got alot of money but not the type that makes one a majority owner by MLS standards. Now I'm sure that he has a business associate much like ODLH had Brener, but even then they only bought half. Granted Brener is a billionaire so likely that was AEG holding things up. Or maybe it was Brener not really being interested in buying into soccer and only doing it to help ODLH. It would be easier for Beckham to therefore go out and buy a piece of a franchise looking to sell like Houston or augment another ownership group. He'd be of much more use to MLS in saving a franchise than starting a new one anyway.

 

Good on ya - i don't fall into the "twentysomethings" category either.

Fine, you caught me on emotion before, However, blindly calling a group a "sad bunch" out of no where???

You have to understand there is some anger there. We are a group that has been out there busting are asses doing work for a team that is still not here.

This is why yea, many of us are defensive. Being constantly attacked by people who are on a message board while many of us are putting in valuable personal time to this cause has us frustrated.

Then please - next time you are in NY - lets talk - i think everyone who knows me here knows i too am always open to talk soccer.

I also think its important for you to understand the group you called a "sad bunch" and understand the hard work and time they have put into bringing a team to NYC as well. This is onside of many of them having jobs, families etc. This is all for passion of the game they love.

Then maybe you will see why your attack pissed a lot of people off and yea - ill gladly buy you a pint.

I am not that guy - no.

No, that's not it. If that team is called New York City xxx - i will still be there with bells on (as would many others). NOT EVERYONE in our group is just about bringing the Cosmos back, although most of us feel it would be best.

I've thought rationally and have thought deep about the positives and negatives of the Cosmos and a team not called the Cosmos. In fact, in the beginning, I was in favor of a new brand, but seeing the effect the brand name has had around the city and the globe, Yea, I really hope it is the Cosmos as I think it is better for MLS than something new.

In 2007-2008 we were in bars in the early mornings trying to get people to sign a petition, people a few train stops away from the rumored location of a stadium and they could give a feck less about it, but now that the Cosmos are in town, we are getting a much more positive reaction from fans.

Not to mention requests from all over the globe about chapters because they remember the Cosmos or have seen highlights of the Cosmos. These are people from soccer loving nations.

As fans we see this as a chance to help build a really big fan culture around a team, and a better one with a brand name as historic as the Cosmos.

Yesterday is yesterday, and some might still hold onto the Pele days, we are looking to build soccer in NY for the future.

Again, you caught me at an emotional moment before, but your tweet did bother not only myself but a lot of us.

 

Agree with this 100%

 

I disagree with your definition of "hater", but since I too am 46, I'm afraid these whippersnappers would just laugh at us if we argued about it.

Kenn, I've always appreciated your input on big soccer and when I've come across you in other places. I'm pretty sure I've used your attendance stats when we've put together booklets for meeting with various government officials and potential investors (without attribution). So thanks, and try to keep separate in your mind, those who comment on big soccer, and the borough boys and their mission and work.

 

Let me just say that I am 45, will be 46 at the end of the year...


...and whenever I've run into you guys on BS I can feel my "hater meter" start to skyrocket...


...why don't you guys get a beer and hug.

 

That conversation has already taken place a few years ago, though slightly different from what you state. MLS called Blank and he said he was interested but in about 5 years and he wanted to house them a new outdoor Falcons stadium. (Last call was in 2009, I believe). Stadium is taking a bit long so it will be probably 2016/17 by the time all is said and done and they are in the league.

Garber knows Atlanta is coming and is in his back pocket, so to speak, but that they are not coming any earlier so the moratorium in Atlanta's perspective is no big deal.

 

My scenario was a hypothetical...what if the new Georgia Dome, (my shorthand for the new Blank preferred outdoor stadium though I was hoping that the Vancouver dome removal indoor to outdoor conversion renovation could be a way to go since I think I've read that the decision makers in Georgia prefer a renovated Georgia Dome to a new stadium and the downsizing for soccer in that BC facility is the best we've seen) what if that Atlanta stadium plan could be accelerated to make a bid right now the play with the soccer team being a must have element for decision makers in Georgia, would that moratorium still be enforced?

Out of the realm of hypotheticals your thinking about 2016 or later probably is the reality here and is part of the problem for MLS in getting to 20 teams. There are no solid short term candidates so the league is trying to engineer one here in the city.

Of course folks in a couple of locations around the country want to challenge that theory that no one is ready but with no stadiums or even realistic (Detroit?) plans out there it's hard to see how any of these contenders can themselves be ready in the short term.

Here in the city we're still waiting for a stadium plan to be produced (and in New York the fun and games don't start until the plan is unveiled, lol) so the league publicly states that expansion is not a priority and that the league could conceivably even sit at 19 indefinitely because they may have no alternative.

 

The last 40 or so posts of this thread = tl;dr

 

The point is that indefinite expansion is not healthy for the league and a second NY team is more valuable for a league that is prioritizing improving their television standing over attendance and gameday revenue which is already at a very strong level. NYRB, despite their attendance issues which is still in the top half of the league, still gets higher television ratings on MSG than even LA Galaxy. You cannot ignore that bc television is the most important thing in the future growth of this league. Atlanta, whatever you want to believe, will not give MLS more television viewers than NY2 will and far less than either NY2 or RBNY. This is a fact. When you have a 20 million strong market you tap that twice. Every league does this and during the economic peaks and valleys television will carry a league to a position of strength.

Who knows if MLS will back off of the moratorium if ATL suddenly finds itself ready, but I don't see them putting ATL in front of NY2 if they're serious about a pause at 20, which I think they are. And if they're not, they should be. It's time for MLS to start perpetuation a position of stability and not be in a state of flux. Rather than focusing on the new markets year after year which have been strong, it's time to focus on strengthening or even moving some of the markets which they already have. ATL may recieve one of the older moving franchises which have been weak of late. But they cannot do that if they keep handing out new franchises and overexpand before the league is healthy enough to sustain it.

 

Just two different world views on this question.

Time will prove if one or the other or neither of us is correct. I've always been a supporter of fairly rapid expansion. The one advantage a start-up league has is that the cities and markets you have to be in to be a national league have been defined. That includes the South and Florida even if those franchises aren't guaranteed to be your league leaders in attendance. And two teams in three cities indeed with one of them being New York no doubt.

Part of my perspective is admittedly highly personal. The league wasn't as much fun to follow with ten teams and if "final" expansion is pushed back a generation I most likely won't be alive to see it.

Another team here in my home town is no problem just not now not yet and since it can't be now anyway given the realities on the ground not articulated so publicly that it causes fence sitters on Red Bull New York to not come on board.

And not named Cosmos since a segment of our fanbase consists not just of old Cosmos fans but the only old Cosmos fans still alive and living in the metro area who continue to support major league domestic soccer here after the demise of the NASL in the '80s. If F.cosmos gets off the ground we'll have the unprecedented dynamic in the metro area of more old Cosmos fans rooting for Red Bull than for the new F.cosmos. That old band can't be put back together.

But it's fun following this stuff and as hard to believe as it may be I'm actually far more plugged into how the New York Red Bulls are doing than these questions. DVRed the Arsenal game and have watched Henry's goal fifty times maybe, lol. Whether Ream stays or goes (not a huge Ream guy anyway), where Marquez plays, is it Lampard or Ballack or someone else for that missing piece in the midfield, can Rodgers and Richards duplicate their sensational seasons, will I still have opportunities to talk to Gunner Solli on the PATH train headed back to the city on Saturday nights as he goes to Soho or TriBeCa or Chelsea or wherever his DJing gigs are in Manhattan or even continue to run into the Borough Boys (those guys should really be on board our home town soccer express) at the Arena, these are my soccer lifelines.

Generals/Cosmos/MetroStars/Red Bull that's what we've had here in New York over the last half century and don't be fooled by soccer diehards NY is a baseball then football and basketball then hockey town it ain't a soccer town and the deal here for the sport is still very delicate.

Anyway, expansion will play out as the organic realities dictate.

 

Really do not see why the choice must be New York or Orlando. I understand how Garber has a hard-on for New York, but since the Cosmos still do not have a team or anything that comes with it in the 2nd division (i.e. an active fanbase) it is a bit hopeful to put all your eggs in that basket.

There are other markets like Minneapolis, Atlanta, Carolina, etc. that deserve a team just as much. In the case of MN, they even have a buyer interested (Zygi Wilf, owner of the Vikings) in getting them a stadium and a franchise.

 

A buyer that is interested in MLS for no other reason than to fill in some dates in his proposed NFL enormodome.

 

The guy comes from a German background. I do not think it is so far-fetched that he could also possibly like the sport.

Regardless, this does not change the fact that there is interest outside of NY/Orlando and that saying they are the only options (especially NY) is incredibly short-sighted. The world doesn't revolve around a team that died decades ago.

 

I can understand the instinctive pleasure gained from seeing of history unfold as MLS added new markets and wanting to see the ultimate result of 17 odd years of history be made manifest. I enjoyed it too. And selfishly, I would love to see every market that MLS will ever be in brought into the league next year too. But that's just not realistic and it's just not what MLS needs right now.

Bc more than new teams and markets, I'd like to see MLS succeed. And not just in the manner that it is now, but to truly establish itself as the #5 in a true and universally accepted Big 5 of team sports in this country. I would prefer to see MLS focus on marketing in FCD and Columbus and getting HSG to sell one of those two teams. I'd like MLS to resolve the DC matter once and for all. But most of all I think MLS needs a few seasons that fans across the country can know who is in the league and who is not. Where MLS' current markets take on a semblance of permanence and a new line can be drawn between old and new markets. But most of all a league where an expansion draft is no longer a yearly occurrence bc it was almost becoming as standard as the Super Draft.

When MLS was at ten teams going into it's second decade, and with weakening franchises permeating the league, it needed the shot of enthusiastic new markets, new capital from those moves and the media attention that those teams brought. The attention that David Beckham brought to the league made the timing of those moves very opportune and they played their hand well. But now is the time to build a sense of normalcy for a few years and make expansion something that is a unique occurrence rather than a yearly one.

Now specific to the NY market. I lived in upstate NY, not NYC I know but alot of my family lives in Queens and Bronx, but it was enough to understand that NY loves the Yankees more than anything else. I love 'em too. And NY has it's primary sports. Doesn't matter. No MLS team outside of maybe Columbus and they still have the Buckeyes there, will ever be placed with the expectation of being the number one or two pastimes in those markets. I don't think MLS is number one in any of it's current markets. Maybe it's close in Portland. Irregardless, NY focus on the part of MLS isn't about NY the soccertown but rather NY the television market which by osmosis, accident, what have you, will always provide ratings that will make any other prospective market seem irrelevent. It's why the Knicks can win nothing in forever, be only the fifth in the league in attendance yet still be the most valuable team in the NBA by a considerable margin.

You pointed out that hockey is number four in the hearts and minds of New Yorkers yet that sport is represented in the market more than any other sport in the country because NY franchises accrue and hold value much easier than in other markets.

The New York Red Bulls are the top rated team in MLS on television.

That's a fact that makes NY2 to an eventuality. Now that being inevititable, it makes sense to use a brand that ties US soccer history to one of it's seminal moments, it's first long-term domestic league. I see it as bringing the history of US soccer full-circle. Its why I'm happy to see the Sounders, Whitecaps, Timbers, and Earthquakes have a legacy in this league and I believe that the addition of the Cosmos brand would make those ties complete bc unlike alot of BS poster I do not see NASL as a failure but rather a necessary step in the evolution of the beautiful game in this country. Everything that happened, good or bad, helped our sporting culture limp along to the success that we're having today. And I think that bringing back the Cosmos is an important step in acknowledging some of the good that they did for the sport here. That league was destined to fail, Cosmos or no. There were too many intrinsic obstacles to overcome, and they expanded too quickly. But it was a great beta test and helped seed the soil with the nutrients necessary for this new era of US soccer to grow. It's all tied together.

But in a practical sense, even a splintered, NY Cosmos fanbase is going to be of more value to the league than a new brand. This is just plain logical. Obviously many old Cosmos will stay with RBNY, and they should. It's how loyalties work. They grow and fade naturally. But those who come to the Cosmos in their first year will have stronger loyalties to that team than any other concept that they may find to sell that new team in any other way. Period. RBNY already has it's own history and following and doesn't need any help right now bc it's not a franchise in as much trouble as ppl like to think. Alot of that has to do with perception. They're still among the more valuable franchises in MLS, even with it's relative lack of success. There's no better way to launch a second NY franchise than to tie the Cosmos name to it. An argument that NY2 would be more successful without that brand is simply not based in reality. But I don't think that that's the point that you were really trying to make. I can see some part of what makes you not want it to be used, but you have to look at this from the perspective of MLS. I don't see them expanding to a second NY franchise and not using that brand now that it's available to them. It makes as much sense as putting a second team in NY to me.

This has no bearing on what MLS is trying to do whatsoever. The only thing holding this deal up is a stadium which MLS themselves are spearheading.

It just seems kinda strange that you state that you don't see why the choice must include NY but that you understand how Garber has a hard-on for NY. If you understand it, then you should understand why it's NY's expansion to lose.

I mean this statement is almost schizophrenic in it's focus, "I understand but I don't understand". What are you trying to say here?

The New York Red Bulls are the top-rated team in MLS on television.

Let me say that again, RBNY is the top rated franchise in MLS. That's all you need to know. They never won a championship, can't fill their stadium (partly bc it's bigger than most MLS stadiums, and they still get better numbers than most but I digress), yet Red Bulls get more ppl watching on their tv sets than the Galaxy, Seattle, Portland, TO, DCU any of those popular teams and teams that have won titles in multiples. The Red Bulls beat them all on tv. And television is where the money is. If you want this league to succeed then quit hoping that they throw money in a firepit. MLS is past the point of caring how many butts a market might put in seats, they already have enough markets doing that now. MLS is no longer showcasing expansion teams on their national broadcast. MTL won't get on US tv once this season. NY and LA will dominate it.

This is not a meritocracy. Besides, none of those markets have ownership groups stepping up at the moment either.

But even if they did, MLS is trying to do everything that they can to improve their national tv numbers. Even a split, distracted, NY market is going to give you a much bigger impact on national television numbers than any of those three markets. It's not a coincidence that their three US network deals all expire after 2015 which is just a year after they're trying to target getting NY2 into the league.

No, but the sports world does revolve around television and that's why NY2, and almost by default the Cosmos, are the true front-runners for this bid. Make no mistake, this is NY's expansion to lose. And while they may very well lose it, MLS will have to fail and be overwhelmingly convinced of that failure to give up on this with 2015 being circled on all of their office calendars as the year all of their tv deals are set to expire.

The New York Red Bulls are the top-rated team in MLS on television. MLS just signed a deal with NBC. A deal which expires at the same time as their ESPN and Spanish broadcast deals. MLS' biggest storyline of the past five seasons, Beckham, was in the showcase event on national television and it was beaten by a rebroadcast of an EPL early season matchup. In this country. This year MLS also beat out the NBA and NHL in attendance.

Now I assume that most ppl already know about these things but I'm linking these stories anyway bc your questioning on the impetus of MLS' interest in getting into NY2 and stopping expansion after that makes me wonder whether or not you've been following any of these stories. NY isn't a focus bc they like to try your patience. They couldn't care less about that. And they don't any more markets for the purpose of improving attendance, they have enough. Any other way of improving that would be to start moving franchises which they can't do if they keep handing out new franchises like candy. It blows my mind that BSers can show an adroit, almost sevant-like understandings of the inequities and modalities of television in European football in all of it's negative glory, but for some reason we become braindead about MLS' reasoning for NY2 when it's so obviously necessitated by that selfsame medium,... television. Voilà!

 

I was saying that I understand how Garber has a hard-on for NY. Not why Garber has a hard-on for NY. I was using how as a modifier, not to imply that I understand how he could possibly get a boner any time he thinks of the Cosmos.

How much revenue is that TV exposure generating for them? The only bearing this could possibly have is on the terms of a MLS TV deal as it is not done on a team-by-team basis. A second New York team certainly might generate more television interest than another franchise in the SE, SW, or Midwest United States or it could cannibalize NYRB's numbers. At that point, how much is it helping MLS negotiate better (more profitable) TV contracts?

TV exposure is good when generating revenue for top-rated leagues. The problem is that, currently, MLS is not a top-rated league. A slightly higher rating will do absolutely nil for the league if it doesn't suddenly make ESPN, Galavision, or NBC pay boatloads more to broadcast the games. TV revenue is most likely dwarfed by what is made from selling merchandise and seats.

Has Don Garber even tried to stoke interest in these markets for a franchise or has it all been NY?

Unfortunately MLS is not at a point where it can only rely on TV contracts to generate income. If the Cosmos cannibalize the NYRB fanbase or vice versa, how will that help the league? Unless the addition of that one team results in HUGE increases in the current contracts, it is a crap shoot at best. If this were the NFL, sure, it might mean something because the exposure of that league is always incredibly high. But this is MLS. Unless ESPN/NBC/et al. are really wowed by the extra NY team, it is unlikely to result in huge increases in revenue for the league.

You really are putting too much emphasis on the TV markets at the detriment to expanding the overall reach of the MLS. If they expanded into Orlando/Miami/Minneapolis I doubt they would lose much money in TV contracts compared to a second NY team. Hell, the greater national reach might actually help at the negotiating table.

e: For reference, the NBC TV deal with MLS is worth $30m over 3 years. This is about 7 percent what the LA Lakers alone will gross in one local cable deal in 3 years. Let that sink in, a bit. MLS is not in a position to spurn new markets for a negligible contract increase.

2nd e: If this article is to believed, then even a $5m increase in each TV contract would be a drop in the bucket.

 

And thats bad why? I doubt it is his sole reason, but it is a reason nonetheless. However, will that make MLS turn away from him? Turn away from a billionaire? I doubt it.

If and when the new Vikings Stadium gets built, I am sure MLS will come a knocking. You will have an entirely new stadium, ownership of that stadium, with that stadiums owners who want a team (maybe not because they LOVE football) in a Large Metropolitan Area with a history of supporting a football team.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what MLS is looking for in their expansion markets?

 

No, what they are looking for is negligible increases in already dreadfully low $ amount TV contracts to somehow provide the windfall that this league needs! At least, this is what seems to be popular opinion.

Screw new markets, we need more teams in the big ones!