Olympic Referee Appointments & Discussions [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Jul 22, 2012.

  1. vetshak

    vetshak Member+

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    I have to say, if Japan can beat Mexico in the semifinal, I think Geiger has a shot at the gold medal game. I don't think Brych, Clattenburg, or Roldan have been bad at all, but Geiger's performance today has seemed the strongest of the bunch. That is, of course, assuming that the gold medal referee will come from the quarterfinal bunch.

    The card for the first PK in the GBR-KOR match was a bit harsh, I think, and the second PK was slightly dodgy. There will be plenty of discussion over the two orange cards (the second of which didn't even garner a foul) in the MEX-SEN match and, while I feel for Brych because both Brazil and Honduras seemed to turn that into an immature card-fest, 11 cards in a game rarely garner you advancement.


  2. MetroFever

    MetroFever Member

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    I thought Brych did well, with his major mistakes being not giving advantage on the yellow he issued against Brazil (it seemed he realized his error and apologized) and failure to caution Neymar for simulation.

    This was a difficult game to officiate and there was a reason he was assigned this specific match. On the first send-off, I'm not sure a "talking to" is in order as he whacks the Brazilian in the left ankle.

    A good coach realizes Brych is strict and gets his team ready accordingly. Honduras played recklessly as they have all tournament, despite their skill. If they had a modicum of self-discipline, they would have won the game.
  3. vetshak

    vetshak Member+

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    Brych probably is going to catch a fair amount of media flak for the number of cards and the send-off's, but I agree wholeheartedly with you. I wouldn't be surprised if his inspectors make some sort of comment about him not imposing personality on the match, however... though I think that can be a really hard thing to do for a German working a pair of Latin teams.
  4. vetshak

    vetshak Member+

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    I don't think he was asking about whether it was handling... the comment was more directed towards whether a caution was needed.

    I think within the modern interpretation of handling, it was an excellent call and a good catch. But to call it "unsporting" seems really harsh. The Korean defender was sliding to block the shot, and people put their hands out like that when they slide... it's making yourself bigger, but it's not a blatant act of unsporting behavior.

    I know MLS referees have been advised this year to avoid giving cautions on PK calls under the guise of making them more "convincing." That's what this looked like to me.


  5. vetshak

    vetshak Member+

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    Not really a referee comment, but is there any doubt that Craig Bellamy's alter ego is from New York?
  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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    I know it's not a rule, but having Geiger do three matches at a tournament and all of them being Japan would just feel and look very odd.

    Also, I would never say it's safe, because it's gone both ways, but I do think the Gold Medal referee won't come from the QFs this time. You now have all UEFA referees available. Moen did the U17 WC Final last year, so is held in high regard. And Rocchi has only had one game and it was a big one to open. I now think it's possible you will see both of them. Especially because Nishimura is now out of contention unless Korea Republic and Japan end up in the same match.

    It wouldn't be absurd, however, for Geiger to get the Brazil v Korea Republic semi. Don't think it happens, again, because of the availability of UEFA refs and the fact that a bunch of good refs have only had one match (O'Leary included), but it would be a sensible appointment.
  7. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

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    I think Balboa has little credibility, but also thought a few of the yellows were soft, and Brazil always seems to get away with stuff that the likes of Honduras doesn't. Brazilian players also are really good at falling over overly outstretched legs after making a move.....
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  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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    WOMEN Semifinals
    USA : Canada - PEDERSEN (NOR)
    France : Japan - ALVARADO (MEX)

    Hong and Di Iorio are the 4ths on these matches.

    So I got it half-right. Steinhaus (I think) for whichever game France is not on and, then...? Looks to be Hong, in my opinion. Almost has to be Hong, right?
  9. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member

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    For the quarters, overall I thought Geiger did the best job, with Brych next. Both applied TLOG firmly throughout. The talk of issues with Brych being German and working a match with Latin teams is specious IMO. TLOG are the same especially when it comes to world tournaments. Are Germans more rigid in the way they officiate? Of course, it is the same with everything in Germany, which is why the trains run on time. AS mentioned in a previous post, the players should have realized this and adjusted accordingly. The Brazil coach withdrew one of his cautioned players 4 minutes before the half to avoid his getting a 2nd yellow, probably thinking, as do most coaches, that the referee would be looking for a chance to even things up. We know this is not the case, but the coaches seem to believe it or expect it.

    On a separate but related note, we discussed a while back the mechanics of awarding a PK. Go to the spot or not?
    Brych never went near to the spot, and had much less of a problem with dissent than did Roldan who went to the spot twice and was immediately surrounded by 6 o7 seven Koreans. Both gave very strong forceful decisions, but it was a perfect demonstration of which is the better technique.

    PH
  10. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

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    I'd suggest that the players did adjust to take advantage of a referee who was over-zealous and naive. Lots of soft falls and theatrics were rewarded, which is why the St James' Park fans ended up booing instead of being entertained.
  11. vetshak

    vetshak Member+

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    That's an interesting point, because if you watch any South American or Mexican League games, Latin referees almost always signal PK by running to the spot, then stand on it and point at the goal. In the US they teach us to "forcefully" call the PK then retreat to the goal line so you have an escape route and a means of clearly defining those who pursue you off the field as dissenting. To be honest, I've never really paid much attention to variances within European countries.

    I don't think there is a right or wrong, personally. We could probably argue that South American officials perhaps invite dissent by going to the spot, but I think we should consider the cultural differences that exist.

    I've always noted that Mexican and South American referees are far more, I guess the word is "aggressive" or "commanding" in their posture when making signals. I certainly don't mean to make any cultural assumptions...

    [Aside here... please understand the following is me relaying something said by somebody else, not a reflection of any ethnic labeling on my part]

    ...but I recall at Region 2 Youth one year we have a very experienced Latino referee talk to us about handling Latino players (particularly boys/men), and his comment was that the "quiet word" is typically not effective with them. He said you have to get up in their face, look them right in their eye, and speak loudly and forcefully, otherwise they will not respect you. One of the Latino officials in our group (he was about 18) told me afterward that this was absolutely true. So, I guess at least two Latino people feel that way. The way Latino referees handle games, it does seem to be consistent with this, at least from what I have observed.

    What is interesting that if you have a Latino referee run to the spot and make this commanding signal, and then he is surrounded, Latino officials generally seem to to be less irritated by this behavior. Again, perhaps because it is a cultural norm.

    Lastly, before we jump on Roldan for being surrounded, we also have to keep in mind it was the second PK awarded in 10 minutes against the Koreans, while Brych only awarded the one to Brazil. How much more upset were the Koreans about two PKs in 10 minutes (the second of which seemed, arguably, a bit dodgy)? I would guess a bit more...
  12. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

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    Actually, the second PK in 4 minutes. Even though the second call was clearly correct, the circumstances made it difficult to sell, and I think Roldan's approach worked perfectly. He was calm and controlled in his interactions with the Korean players, not overly officious at all.
  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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    MEN Semifinals
    Korea Republic : Brazil - KRALOVEC (CZE)
    Mexico : Japan - ROCCHI (ITA)

    It's a UEFA sweep, but thought we'd see Moen before Kralovec. Will post the 4ths when I know them.

    Got to think a Brazil : Mexico final is Nishimura, particularly given how EURO was handled (not that they relate directly, but the precedent is now set).

    Anything else and it's...? Moen would be my best guess, but there are other options. I wouldn't rule out Garcia if Mexico loses, which is something I had not previously thought about.
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  14. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

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    Not having a team from you confederation in the semi's helps.

    Imagine that...;)
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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    Gassama is the 4th to Rocchi.

    Geiger is the 4th to Kralovec.

    Read into that as you may, but remember that Garcia couldn't be on either semifinal, yet could be on the medal match that Mexico isn't in. So it doesn't necessarily mean Geiger is more likely to be assigned to a medal match than Garcia--if a CONCACAF referee is involved at all, that is.
  16. andymoss

    andymoss BigSoccer Supporter

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    From Sean's FB page:

    Men's Olympic semi-final appointments and the retention list came out this evening. Our referee crew has "made the cut" and been selected to be retained for the remainder of the tournament. On Tuesday our referee (Mark Geiger) will be the 4th official and I will serve as the 5th official (reserve assistant referee) for the semi-final match between Korea and Brazil. Such an honor to have been selected to remain for the conclusion of the tournament. Thanks to everyone for their support and well wishes throughout.

    And Mark's:

    The assignments have once again been released...I have been assigned as the fourth official and Sean as the fifth official on the Brazil vs. South Korea match to be played on Tuesday at 2:45pm est. I am very excited to be taking part in the tournament in these late stages.
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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    On their blog, Geiger also says that 7 of the 16 crews have been retained for the semis and finals. Inherently, that means that one of the crews from the semifinals will see action again on a medal match.

    Still think it's really difficult for Geiger to get another whistle, but I'd obviously be quite happy to be wrong. Gassama for the Bronze whistle or Rocchi/Kralovec as the 4th on the Gold medal match seems more likely.

    Of course, if the two Asian teams don't play each other, and Nishimura (or Irmatov) is one of the 7 referees, then two of the crews from the semis will have to work again.
  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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    Best source I have, which usually is not wrong on these things, says the other three trios left are led by Irmatov, Roldan and Clattenburg. Everyone else has been sent home.

    I guess that means Nishimura (and Garcia, for that matter) just couldn't be used again based on the semifinals. Apparently FIFA has not followed in UEFA's footsteps.

    I must say, from the eye test (and while admitting I didn't see every game) I'm a bit confused. Other than FIFA's historical like for him, I don't see what Irmatov did to deserve to stay. I also wonder what this says about FIFA's view of Clattenburg's non-red card for the kick to the head. Perhaps most confusing is what Moen did to get sent home.

    Regardless of all those questions, suddenly Clattenburg is looking like a favorite for the Gold Medal match. He's the only remaining referee, aside from Gassama, who has no potential conflicts because of the teams. I do fear that the Gold medal match is going to undeservedly go to Irmatov now if it's Brazil v Mexico. There's no reason whatsoever to keep him around unless you're going to use him in that case. Two of the three other potential matchups would require a different referee and even the third one might (I don't think he'd get an Asia v Asia final, but it's not strictly forbidden).

    Geiger's chances have certainly increased in my opinion, based solely on which 7 referees are left. But I still think it would look incredibly odd for him to officiate Japan three times.
  19. Law5

    Law5 Member+

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    Steinhaus or Palmqvist, but Jenny had the final in Athens. I'd put my money on Bibi, though, if it's USA v Japan.
  20. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

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    Perhaps it indicates that FIFA is more concerned with the referee's full background than their performance so far in this tournament (which imo, would be wise). Moen is very young, so it makes sense that he arrived at bottom of their UEFA pecking order.

    On the other hand, Brych had what many considered a poor quarterfinal, and he was the only referee from that round to be sent home.
  21. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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    Or Canada v Japan. I'm not taking anything for granted today.
  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, that is wise to an extent. But I think some (and I'm at the top of this list) would argue that over time, Irmatov has been erratic, turning in some very poor performances at each tournament I've seen him in other than the World Cup. But FIFA has promoted him and then stood by him no matter what. It seems very odd. Reminds me of CONCACAF and Aguilar.

    But Moen did the U17 WC Final, so he came in at a near similar path as Geiger did. On the other hand, I do not believe any of the other four UEFA referees had ever been to a FIFA-level tournament before this one. Insofar as what FIFA has seen in FIFA-level matches, Moen was the only known quantity.

    EDIT: my mistake... Kralovec went to the U17s last year, too. But Moen got the final and Kralovec didn't, so that would still put Moen above him on any pecking order.

    Yeah, but you could look into the QF assignments and who stayed after in a lot of ways. CONMEBOL probably had to have a representative stay, politically, and Roldan was the best of the three. Might make the same argument for CONCACAF, with Garcia needing to leave. Clattenburg staying over Brych might make sense and it might be partially political... it's just the dismissal of Moen that I don't get.
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  23. CKRef22

    CKRef22 Member

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    On a happier note, have the referees for tomorrows men's games been announced yet?
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  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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  25. lemma

    lemma Member

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    Do feel free to let Dawn off you before moving posts around. We would completely understand.
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