I think you are going out of your way to misinterpret my words to justify your argument. I'm not advocating an all-star team mentality. You didn't read (and/or) understand my comment. I said the level of coaching/training should be appropriate for the skill level, and that similarly skilled players should be grouped together for that reason. As far your harping on the parents issue.......well there are certainly some that do push it for their kids, but you should be careful about assuming that all parents are looking for that. Wild assumptions and generalizations don't help make your point.
Most of you are squabbling over semantics. Obviously if you are in a poor soccer resource area the best thing you can do is seek out and find the best coaching available and take advantage of it. If ODP is the best you can find so be it. What I think most people find out is that for the overwhelming majority of players ODP ends up to be a very painful and expensive waste of time. As someone pointed out all you ever read about in these sort of threads is the negativity of those who were not selected. They are absolutely correct, but what those who hold this vantage point often don't see is the way this program tends to trample over the players it is not interested in. They don't feel the sting so they don't appreciate how harsh the reality is. Since the vast majority of players end up on the outside looking in, a lot of people end up with very hard feelings. Suffice to say that the program ends up not working for a lot more players than it works for. The point I would like people to realize is that ODP is not the be all end all that a lot of the hype would seem to suggest. For most people playing for a good coach in a good club can do as much if not more for a player.
Just once. But, in the couple of year period when he was not playing on a club team, he could work on his own on other days, often incorporating ideas from the ODP training, because the ODP training was actually aimed at both technical and tactical development. He could incorporate a lot of the technical ideas into his own ball time, sometimes with a partner. And, the once a week was from late August to late February during years when he made the state team. In contrast, some states have no district training. On two days at the end of the fall season, there are tryouts and a state team is selected. Then the state team trains 3-4 times and goes to an ODP tournament. People in those states correctly perceive ODP as talent identification, NOT development. My point was that in some states there is a lot of development emphasis, in other states very little.
The same could be said of Freddy Adu when he has trained with the U20's the last few years. Have any of those players been of a similar ability level as Adu? Or has he just found it more challenging because he has at a physical disadvantage? Who are these players he or Donovan played with/against who were of similar ability?
And thats selection not development and those are as close as one can come to the all star team mentality without overtly advocating it. My biggest problem is the reality that the environment in some respects is being shaped to appeal to what parents want to see done rather than what needs to be done. I don't blame the parents for that.
Did you not learn the concept of similar? Beasely and Donovan are similar ability compared to college players at UCLA or Maryland. In turn Donovan and starters at UCLA are very similar compared to players to virtually all the players found on so-called premier youth teams. There are many little Maradona's in rec. soccer that can dribble and score at will - so much so that parents that observe them assume they are seeing the future of soccer. Then those kids go to a better club team and find all the kids were forwards that scored many goals every game. This repeats and repeats at each higher level. Not identical. Similar.
ODP is all about selection. That's the point. All the states are supposed to do is identify and select the best players to present to the regional & national coaches, where they can then identify and select the best of those for regional and national pools/teams. We can discuss whether or not this is effective, but that doesn't change what ODP is supposed to be. I think based on what the comments are here, there is a general feeling that there is both incompetence and bias with regard to the selection process. I agree with your second comment. And this is the problem with the system. Since the parents are being asked to fork over upwards of $1,000 for their kid to participate in ODP, ODP must always take into account the fact that the parents are customers. However, if the parents believe that their kids are "special", and over-inflate the value of ODP, we can not help that. Parents will believe what they want to believe.
I have to add laziness to the reasons cited above for the failures of the ODP identification system. It takes a lot of time and effort to really get out there and look for the best players. You actually have to watch players in multiple games versus good compeition to see who has what it takes. Unfortunately few ODP coaches / trainers seem to be willing to do that and instead just select the same " locally well known" players as were selected the year before when much better players are available. Add this to the incompetence and bias listed above and you have the current situation where our top youth club teams can regularly beat the top academy teams from overseas but our selected ODP national players cannot do the same with any regularity.
wow, im sorry but to be quite frank that is rediculous of you to say that we ODP coaches are lazy. Not only do we have to look through potentially hundreds of kids at EACH tryout, we also have our own teams to coach. most ODP coaches can not just go out on saturday mornings to watch games, because our own teams play. Also, money plays an issue there, to go out and watch kids who may live hours away would cost the state budget lots of money that is why we bring the kids to us...
I guess I feel that the important responsibility of player identification should not be given to ODP coaches that are too busy coaching other teams or doing other things to actually get out and see as many players as possible. Players should not be selected due to playing for the ODP coaches club or attending the ODP coaches summer camp. If we want to truly identify the top players we have to eliminate the who you know or play for influences and really do the hard work and invest the time to do it right. I know the current ODP coaches often have to coach many teams and run camps just to make a living and that creates many of the problems found in the current system.
MA, You are right that it is very hard for anyone to serve two masters. But, recognizing the problem and solving the problem are not the same thing. A few States can afford to hire ODP coaches who would work exclusively for the State Association; but, that is a very limited number. Do the math. If you were able to hire a qualified coach, depending on where you are in the country you would have to pay an average salary of $40,000. On top of that you have payroll burden (FICA, FUTA, Worker's comp) that adds on average another 20%. This brings your cost per coach to $48,000. States host an average of 11 ODP teams (the difference and odd number arise from some States not opting to hold "developmental" programs for the youngest years.) The ODP coach could do multiple years, however because of the need to attend many events, some conflicting such, as the Region Camps, a coach could at best handle three teams. This would mean you would need four coaches at a minimum $160,000. You can reduce that amount by crediting the amount now paid to coaches, which averages in Region II about $1,000 per year per coach, which with assistants factored in equals $22,000. This means you would need to raise at a minimum $138,000. In large States, with greater population, you would need more coaches for they would have more to scout. The cost will go up. Believe it or not this has been looked at and studied many different ways. Looked at as an average cost per player registered, what you are suggesting would require States to raise their annual registration for all players an average of $5. Most States do not have the political will to do this. They are run by predominantly recreational/community team organizations who believe ODP should be entirely self supporting. For all States the there is competitive pressure from other organizations for members. These other organizations do not the costs the Federation mandates the State Associations to cover. This means these organizations can charge less for registration and if the State Associations raise their registration costs they will hemorrhage members. Raising the costs for ODP participants is not realistic either. The additional cost you would impose would average a little over $200 per player for every player who participates in ODP currently. This "fix" would do little more than price many out of the program. Is this what you want? Where are you going to get the money? Find the money and the problem is solved. A couple of final points - first, ODP camps are not run by ODP coaches to raise money for the coaches. Many could make much more elsewhere. Second, you assertions about the players being missed are wildly inflated. Some surely are missed, but the vast number are found. To claim that club teams can beat ODP teams and therefore ODP is doing a poor job is an oft heard statement, but all it does is reveal the makers of such statements as uninformed. The age difference between club and ODP, the time spent on working as a unit, the use of games for ODP to see players in various situations and not primarily to win grossly distort any comparison. ODP has a lot of problems. Complaining might make you feel better. However, if you want to improve things come up with a solution that works at all levels, including fiscal ones.
Again though, most states cannot afford to have full time ODP only coaches who go around and watch games every saturday; that would just be too expensive. States cannot afford to have full time scouts it is just a fact.
Perhaps a better question might be what would you do if you spotted a kid at a tournament/series of games who wasn't on your ODP roster? (Assume this was a kid in your state and at the age you coached.) Would you urge him to tryout the next time he could? Or what if you saw one of your current ODP kids not playing well for his club, would you use that in your next evaluation? I'm not trying to put you in a spot here, I think I'm trying to point out that you probably do as much scouting as you can - which may not be much. (As you pointed out earlier, your time is limited and it is hard to see games across state.) I know a guy who claims that in selecting Little League All-stars, the first 5-6 choices are no brainers. And after that, there are a lot of kids at the same level of talent. No matter who you pick, there is going to be controversy. And if those kids have parents on the BOD or coaching staff, it gets worse. The ODP problem exists across the board in other sports.
Since ODP really is about identification, why would you need full-time coaches? Why does every state need a team? Why not just pay a few people to scout weekend games? Then have some regional coaches to conduct camps. Why not have referees give input? They may not be able to evalutate as well as experienced coaches, but if 15 referees feel a kid is pretty good, he's probably worth a look. Why not offer college coaches travel$$ for each player they recommend that makes the regional camp that no one else does. They are in the business of finding players - incent them to uncover good ones that might not have what it takes to get into their program. How about hiring one person to keep a database on the top 100 prospects. Develop a bird dog network by offering incentives to the person who finds the most evenual prospects first or who's evaulations are the most accurate.
Your first paragraph is already done in most States and you do not need full time coaches. You know where 90% percent of the top players play - if it is St Louis, look at SYLSA, if it is Oklahoma, it is the State League, if it Southern California, hello Coast, if it is Chicago look at the top division of NISL. For the most part your clubs have consolidated the top talent in the top divisions of these Leagues. The problem arises in finding that other 10%. They may be playing in adult Hispanic Leagues. They may be that rare player who develops despite being surrounded by barely mediocre talent, perhaps because their parents or siblings played. The issue becomes the cost of finding that 10%. Many good coaches have networks such as you describe and use them to locate these players. Others do not. A fair number of these players come to ODP camps and can be discovered there. No system is perfect. The cost of perfection is too high. What people need to consider is what should be paid to increase the quality and who will do the paying. You are right, for most States the reality is you have only three or four players who have a shot at Regional Team. The larger populations States have more, but some smaller States do produce players at a rate that is higher than what you would expect solely on population. Still, as a practical matter, as was noted, players 1 through 6 in most states are no brainers and the argument is between nos. 12 through 24. In reality 12 through 24 have almost no shot at Regional Team or beyond and for ODP do not really matter. That is the reality. Consolidating some areas makes sense, but in many ways it also increases costs. The areas you would consolidate, except for the Northeast and Mid Altantic smaller States are huge. It would become very difficult to scout such large Regions. How many scouts would you hirer to scout Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Utah and probably Eastern Washington and Oregon? What about Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota and Iowa? ODP still has value for those non "no brainer" players, which is why many go year to year to Regional Camp knowing full well they have little to no chance of making Regional Team. For them Regional Camp offers other benefits from exposure to college coaches, to a far more competitive soccer camp than most, to a chance to make friends and trade shirts. If it has no value, don't go.
True. The tryout process should not be the only factor in a decision. The ODP coaches should be watching the kids pklay for their club teams. This is especially true for the teams in states with harsh winters, where decisions are often made to cut kids out of a winter training pool based on how they play in a gymnasium with two t-shirts on the floor as a goal. That method may work to identify an indoor team or futsal team, but it doesn't always translate to the outdoor game. You'll sometimes see ODP coaches with clipboards at state cup games, but there is little independent watching going on outside of that. Many players are playing in the Regional leagues, and this would be a more accurate indicator of where the skill level of some of these players are at, yet I can't recall ever seeing a state ODP coach at a regional match. Coaches and programs have their "pet" players and they get selected all the time, regardless of how they play. There are still small players who were able to use their quickness at U13, but who haven't grown and can't compete physically at U15, yet they continue to be picked and they can't hold on to the ball during basic should to shoulder contact.
Which allegedly is what ID2 does, yet the ID2 invitation list is brutal. I don't think the actual selection process is of great importance, actually. If you have good, fair coaches, the list will be good. If not, then not.
Yes, and the next time he could would be our next session. I've seen kids as late as the last session and invited them in to the pool for evaluation against those players. Of course, that presents a problem in that parents of players who have attended all of the other sessions can get a bit shirty, especially if they don't make the cut. Unfortunately, that's part of the process if we're truly trying to ID the best players and that is enhanced in states with traditional ODP systems where certain coaches do scout for additional players. For the record, I've also experienced cases where regional or national staff coaches saw a certain kid play somewhere, invited them into the program and basically told the state that they need to be at camp. I purposely coach in the same age group at club level so I can keep my eye on players involved in ODP. Between playing their teams in league play, tournaments, State Cup and seeing them before or after my club games I'll get to see them numerous times in their club setting. All that said, taking into account club means one must account for circumstances there as well. Players on small club teams may not always look as good if there are not great players around them. Players who look great may in actuality be very limited in their understanding of the game at a higher level. You also have to take any performance in the context of a body of work with which you're familiar with the player not to mention the trend of that player's performance (is it a one off poor performance or does it match a trend you've noticed in that player?). In my circumstance that body of work typically consists only of what I've seen from the player that club year and that ODP year. Working with the youngest selection age group has its advantages.
We didn't even know what ODP was a few years back. My son was approached by the coach of another team and invited to play for the state team. We were told that our state was trying to get the best talent in the state and they had insituted a scouting initiative. Club coaches were doing the scouting. The coach who scouted my son was someone we didn't know at all, but we had played his team many times, so he had watched my son play. I think this is an efficient way to put together a strong state team. Regionals, I guess, is a different story. This year, it looks as if our state team will be weak...not that the point of the "team" is to really be a team. I see ODP as an individual thing; for selection. As I've said before, my son's club team probably has most of the kids who should be on the ODP team. They're not because they come from three different states and many are disillusioned with the program, feeling that they receive far better coaching from our club coaches (who don't really support ODP). My son loves ODP; he thinks the tournament and the camps are fun and he really wants to have a stab the regional team.
Right now our state cup tournament is going on and since I don't have a team participating it has given me more of a chance to go watch some of the boys that I am helping to coach; so I am able to do a little scouting now. As for what I would do if I saw whom I thought could play at that level but didn't go to the tryout I would encourage him and his family to come out the next time around. If I saw a player whom I feel is underperforming I would make a note of it and factor that in for the next time we have training.
So we had two ODP coaches admit that they scouted when they had the chance. I liken it to when my U9s would play with just the Center. He'd remind us that there was just one of him and his angle was different than ours. Were things going to get past him? Yes. But he did the best job he could with what he had. (By my lack of vehemence and display of compassion, can you tell that I don't have a kid who is of ODP age? )
Last year, Region II actually did implement a program of scouting and inviting players directly to regional camp without having to try out for state team, to potentially identify top players outside the normal tryout process. I do not know how many were identified, but I did see ODP coaches scouting at Midwest Regional League weekends I went to last year.
That concept works a lot better at a local level than when making regional or national picks. I like to tease a veteran coach I know by telling him to check out a game that involves a national player (or sometimes a Regional ODP player when I know that is the only Regional player in the match), and then asking him after the match which player is the ODP star. He's now 0 for 5. Aside from an Adu here and a Donovan there, I don't think you'll find many no brainers at the high levels.