In my kids age group and state, about 1/3 of the state team changes every year. Look at tryouts for pro teams by comparison. Phenoms burn up the pre-season and then don't make the team. Injured returning players make the team after doing nothing in pre-season. Last year, marginal state player goes with state team to regional camp, and makes regional team. Who knows why that happened? Obviously, the player had a good regional camp or the regional team coach likes that kind of player. Does that mean the system is flawed? I don't think so.
Let's just say that the experiece varies widely from region to region, state to state, coach to coach, age group to ... and so on. It's a good idea, getting the best and brightest all on one team, and sometimes it works (in your case) and sometimes it falls short. Yep, my kid didn't make varsity as a freshman while several "c" club players at the same age did. Then they sat on the bench, while he played every minute and was top scorer on JV. That is NOT a complaint - I think he got a much better experience PLAYING every game at that level, than watching the older boys play Varsity, but who knows how the coaches made the decisions they made. On the other hand, in his club, he was plucked from obscurity, plays on an Elite team a year older and does really well. MVP, that sort of thing. The "c" team players finished their club season 0-7-2 or something. I don't know if I can say "clearly superior" player, but sometimes you just shake your head and cannot fathom what coaches are seeing. It's a good analogy but it's not my kid who thinks he's all that: it's his coaches. (Okay, and maybe his parents think he's something special - but that goes with parenthood.) Both the club and ODP coaches still ask him to try out, he says it's useless because the teams are preselected and he doesn't like the players already on the team. We get a letter every year. With the obvious exception of the high school coach who didn't pull him into varsity early ... I could give a hundred explanations, but they'd just be guesses. But I agree that perception of AI judges and coaches may not match what the performer thinks are strengths and weaknesses, nor what the audience (whether AI or soccer) sees. ODP just seems like an elusive, slippery program in my state. Not sure if it's stuck in a rut or whether it's just not a good fit for us. I just don't expect to see any grand changes before my kids are off to college.
I thought about making an Illinois ODP joke........ The trouble with ODP jokes is that they actually get selected...........
An amusing summary of the vagaries of this sport. Thanks for the story. I'll give you one back. The boys at my son's State team had a similar experience to your son this summer. Played an older State team, won 6-0, the ODP guys said the best player was on the other team. Played another older State team, won 3-0, the ODP guys said the best two players were on the other team. Played another older team, won 3-2, the ODP guys said the best three players were on the other team. Three matches, winning 12-2 in aggregate, the opposition ended up having one national pool player, three full fledged Regional team players, and two Regional squad players. I hear people say that ODP is a learning experience, where the players who weren't selected realize their deficienices when they play with and against the players who are selected. This was our boys' lesson - "Master, I am humbled. I routinely beat teams where everybody is older than me and consider this a good thing. But now I have learned the deeper truth. Truly excellent players lose to teams where every single opponent is younger than them. To achieve this level of excellence, I must stopp competing against older players, and I must stop winning matches." In summary, the soccer games were fun, the selections were head scratching, and the evaluation process was useless. But again, other people have very different experiences. We can only talk about the part of the elephant that each of us have grasped.
JohnR, did the coaches give your son any explanation why the selections appeared at odds with the game results?
He didn't get an answer, no. He asked the State Coach once why he wasn't picked for the 70-player "pool" from which the eventual Regional selections would be made, and the guy wasn't happy to receive the question. My son said the coach was annoyed and rude in his response (and not very helpful). The Regional ODP coaches weren't really around, so he couldn't speak with them. The State Coach did all the team's training, and coached them in the games as well. He was the only guy the kids talked with, to my knowledge. This was actually his second Regional Camp, as he attended a Developmental Camp the year before, and no Regional coach ever talked to him then, either. He came home from that first camp without any evaluation at all, and said that as far as he knew no coach had learned his name. Told this story to people with kids at other ages, or other Regions, and they said that their experiences were very different. So I'd better not say this was a representative story. Rather, one person's story.
It seems there is a fair amount of difference in how states run their ODP programs. Two issues ago of Soccer America there was an issue that looked critically at ODP. This issue had a response from Ian Barker, Minnesota Youth Soccer DOC, which is worth reading. In my experience, MN does an overall good job of running ODP. A couple of his points: - some state associations run ODP as a profit center, which is a mistake. - scholarship kids whose families cannot afford it, but do not simply pass on the expense to those who can afford it. MN has had quite a few immigrant boys make regional pools the last couple years.
JR, mine has rcvd a eval every camp she has ever attended. I have ALL the copies still to this day. She has always taken them back to her club coach at the time and shared what she needed to work on etc. I cant believe yours didnt get any eval. Or better yet, any 1 on 1 time with the coach doing the evals?? WoW I guess boys camp is different than the counter parts?? I wanted to share what has been shared with me...Some players being picked for Regional and above that do not do that good of a job with club, plays better when surrounded with better players. Does that make sense?? Now Im sure you all will say, dah, who wouldnt play better with better players. But stop to think about that for a moment?? Not always that easy?? Iv seen alot of people on GotSoccer.com forums complaining about alot of girls on the Natl team all from one team and that team isnt even a state cup champion, how can that be?? But those 3 or 4 players when playing on the Natl team are tops.
We got evals that were ridiculous....it was so obvious that they were just putting down 2's and 3's under the various sections and not looking at the kids...........complete farce in my opinion.......actually worse than that it's fraud as far as I'm concerned.
The State Coach filled out the Regional Camp evaluations. Same grades as at State Camp, imagine that! The kids got shredded pretty good. Mine was told in essence to find another sport, with an average grade of about 2 on the 1 to 5 scale (5 being highest). Or so he says. He tore it up before I could see it. He was not a happy camper at that particular moment. Glad to see that somebody can make him angrier than I can!
Well, even 4s and 5s don't always get you anywhere. My son went to the Super Y ODP, gets all 4s and 5s, told by the coach he loves his game. When it comes time to pick an all-star team, he gets bypassed. Sees the score from a teammate that was selected, and sees that he has 2s, 3s and some 4s. Scores mean little or nothing when politics are involved. I grew up in Chicago (or Chitonw as it is now know as due to a dumb tattoo artist) and know how the game is played. Explained it to my son, he got it, now he doesn't care. Nor do I. Play for the moment, have fun, and rememeber, the most important stats are GPA and SAT. As they used to chant at Northwestern football games during their infamous 34 game losing streak "That's all right, that's okay, I'm gonna be your boss someday"
True enough, but it's less politics in this case than it is inconistency. Talked to one coach, he told me that he has never given a "5," he's waiting for Pele to give anybody a 5 on anything. Meanwhile, another coach gave 19 "5s" and 5 "4s" to a player at State Camp. Good motto.
Here's another person's story: Following Regional ID Camp a few years ago, 2 kids picked for the Regional Pool, one kid picked for the National Pool. None of them ever receive a single call or e-mail from any state, regional, or national coach or official to attend any event or training. No one comes to watch them play for their club team, no one even bothers to check in with them to see how they are playing, or whether they've improved. Heck, they wouldn't even have known if any of them gave the game up. So, made some sort of impression on coaches to select them to pools, but they were ignored after that. So what's the point of the selection process? If tjhe coaches felt they were good enough to name them to pools, why are they suddenly so poor as to be totally ignored? If the coaches are selecting properly, aren't these the kids you want to be developing? I've just seen state ODP coaches fall in love with certain players and continue to fawn over them as if their last name is Adu, even though they never improve, never grow and are not physically able to compete in their own age group anymore, and fall behind many others in the age group who are improving at a faster rate. The process will never be perfect, but these are the kinds of things that lead people to question the validity and integrity of the program.
The first year that my kid went and made it so far, but not to final team, I (being a green parent, I guess) thought this was a learning experience. As outlined in the rules, I sent a letter to appropriate ODP coach asking for the evaluation so that my son would know where he was lacking and what he should work on. We got back something like this "Average club player. Fitness." Okey doke. I felt like saying, in other words, you have no idea. You either didn't take notes or didn't keep them. JohnR - one thing I agree with, one person, one story. I'm sure there are kids in the very same program here who think it's the best thing EVER. And other kids/parents who have bigger complaints. For us, it was just one more place we would have coughed up money for training, travel, etc. and will never know if it would have made a difference either way.
Sure. I know a very good player who has been Regional ODP 3 years running. What's not to like? Cool trips overseas, coaches treat him well, mostly excellent players to hang with. Great stuff. He didn't like the first 2 years of State training during the no-cut years because it was boring to be with the weaker players, and a few times he has thought that the coaches were asking them to play primitive soccer (less sophisticated that what he does at club), but recently he's been happy across the board. Don't believe that any connections were in play with him, got in on merit. And he can play, it was a good decision. Oh, and the first year my son was in State Camp he got an excellent evaluation. Thought provoking and insight. Too bad that the next year his new coach wrote pretty much the opposite (meaning that the new coach was pretty much 100% wrong, since the boy's game hadn't changed a bit), but the first evaluation was the best one that he has ever received. So give credit there. Just proving that I can play nice in the sandbox, too.
never thought otherwise. The whole ODP thing just perplexes me since the kids I would personally put on a team together are NOT our state's team, but - as with many things - in the end I chalk this up to the amount of effort my kid or other kids put in the process to get recognized. He's starting to take soccer a bit more seriously, but I think he shows well in games (which is why ODP keeps picking him out of the crowd, I suspect), and is efficient/lazy (depending on your point of view) in practices. He doesn't waste energy or look frantic on the field during practices and tryouts. Put him in a crowd of kids with similar ability doing drills, and he may not stand out. Put him a GAME and he will compete with anyone on the field. But the kid is going to have to figure out that with ODP - like many things in life - when you think something doesn't matter, but someone is watching you ... then it MATTERS.
That is so true that you never know when someone is watching. I've talked to college coaches ho have said they lost interest in players based upon watching them warm up.
Interesting article about a U.S. U20 player, Gabriel Ferrari, who was overlooked at the ODP U13 level and was so disolusioned with ODP that he never tried-out again: He's currently playing for Serie A Italian team, Sampdoria. "I remember when I was 13 trying out for the Eastern New York ODP team and I didn’t make it. When I was 13 I was good, but I’ve gotten better as time has gone on so I guess that’s part of it, but I really can’t answer why I’ve never been part of a regional or national camp before. It’s a pretty big mystery." "After that I kind of lost faith and hope in the ODP system to be quite frank. I didn’t try out anymore. I had no interest. I had a lot of friends making regional and national teams and I just broke it off and kept playing for my club and school teams." http://topdrawersoccer.com/articles.aspx?article=2214
Didn't make even the State ODP team, wow. Double wow. Nice to see that it didn't matter a whit for him in the long term. It's very good that there are multiple paths to success. The girls game is not quite so friendly that way.
I was just speaking with one of our club people today (national staff person) and he was saying that a lot of kids opt to walk on to a college team and back door their way on to a national team. He thinks its every bit as good (actually better as our club does not exactly endorse ODP) as the ODP route.
My kids (one boy, one girl) do ODP and have had a very good experience with it. The cost is high, but we have no local clubs that go to high level tournaments, so this is the best opportunity for the kids to play against quality competition and get seen by college coaches. The ODP coaches also coach in their club, so it isn't the coaching that's different, it's the chance to go to regional camps/tournaments and see how they compare with kids from serious soccer states. Kind of a wake-up call when you are a big fish in a little pond...
ODP is a good option for players from the smaller states. My guess is, that will be its ultimate role, as the MLS Academies will obsolete State/Regional ODP in the big metropolitan areas. Leaving ODP to police the areas that are geographically distant from the Academies.
I have mixed feelings. My daughter and son went through the ODP program. My daughter had a great experience, learned alot and currently is on a full scholarship at a very good college on the East Coast. My son had a bad experience. He was placed in a different field position despite playing his original position for several years. The coach was more interested in winning games than developing the players. When we questioned why he was moved to this position? The coach said because he wanted him there. That was it. It was a waste of time for us. My son ended up dropping ODP and was happier because of it.
I think this overlooking of talent happens more often than people realize. "AN EXTREMELY TALENTED YOUNGSTER -- national team material according to his club coach -- has his parents drive him six hours to attend a U.S. Youth Soccer Olympic Development Program (ODP) camp. He trains some but ends up watching most of the games from the bench." "Quite upset about the whole venture, he and his parents agree it's a waste of time and money." *SNIP* "The boy at the start of this article who gave up on ODP was David Arvizu. His Pateadores club coach, Brian Wallace, convinced national team scouts to watch him in Coast Soccer League action." "Arvizu ended up at Bradenton and starred for the U-17s at the 2005 U-17 World Cup with David Nakazawa." And . . . "''We had to battle to keep Eric Wynalda because they thought he was an arrogant SOB, and I said, isn't that what we want?'' McNicol says. ''We had to fight to keep Joe-Max Moore in the program. Joey was a very small, slight boy, a late bloomer, and we were getting hammered. He would have been dumped nowadays.'' http://www.jerseyshoreboca.org/main.php?zone=article&article=306
We had a scrimmage against an older, bigger, physically tough team this weekend. Two ODP Regional rejects had 4 goals, 4 assists between them. Three ODP Regional squaders had zero goals, zero assists between them. Am I saying the two former players are better than the two latter players? No. Am saying, you can make an argument. It's a crapshoot. The ODP coaches get a lot of guys in a little time and have to make snap judgements. Stuff happens. They don't have the luxury of seeing players over a prolonged period of time. That's why it's good that the vast majority of training happens at the club level, where none of this matters.