Getting better athletes is not enough though. Plus there are plenty of very athletic kids playing soccer. US actually has more young athletes playing soccer all the way through the years than many other leading soccer nations. The US needs a better developmental program to educate and promote the players in the sport to be more successful at the highest level. HS soccer is not that program, nor is it trying to be. The DA program, despite having many things it needs to improve, is trying to be that program. Asking players to not play HS is one way or one step in trying to improve the DA program. However, that is also not enough. More is needed, but that is different topic of discussion. I'll start by saying that even a broken clock is correct twice in 24 hours cycle. Dempsey is not one of the leading scorers in the EPL. But even if he was, HS soccer wouldn't have helped him become one. For starters, Clint didn't become the player he is today until he moved to play in England. Remember how long it took him to start playing well for Fulham? Now......compare him to Van Persie, Demba Ba, Aguero and Rooney. Except for Ba, the other 3 players are well known and have been playing at the highest level for the last 5 years with more success than Dempsey. Fridel has been many years in England and has played for many clubs there. He has had his ups and downs. If you remember that far back, he wasn't a real hit at his first club there - Liverpool. Plus, GKs generally develop differently than field players as they hit their peak years much later. But OK, one thing I can give credit to US is for developing GKs. We only need one in the goal though. Let's focus on developing better field players, shall we? Moreover, exception always exist, but they are not proof that something works, especially when it comes to HS soccer. Of course, most US players currently playing that have developed in the US have played HS. So what? None of them have reached even a good compatible career level compared to many European or South American players.
I think everyone can agree that that overall time spent training with their DA team is much better than time spent with their high school team. I don't know about other areas of the country but for my son his high school season had a training to game ratio of 2 to 1 at best. This is not an atmosphere that develops players (although parents really love it). Therefore time wasted in high school is time taken away from the DA, and that is not helpful. As far as developing "leadership" in soccer, if you are not a leader on your DA team it is highly unlikely you will be playing soccer at the highest level in the future, let alone need those leadership skills on those soccer teams. If you are talking about high school soccer creating leadership skills in general, well every DA kid who is a leader on their high school team, is taking away the potential for a non DA kid to get that "leadership" experience on the high school team, so isn't it a net wash? In fact from what I have seen it can actually creates tension on the HS team when a DA kid is the defacto leader just because he is the most skilled player. The rest of the year most of the rest of the team plays together on the same lower level club but this DA kid comes in just for the HS season, which doesn't necessarily help with a "team" atmosphere, especially if the team loses.
Y.O.N.K.O. I agree with everything you said except your first line. It really is, logically,impossible to know how altering a human beings experience will effect what occurs afterwards or know what experiences contributed what to that persons later success. That said, my issue is not with what you clearly and accurately describe as the weaknesses in our system but the "solution" proposed. It is not being proposed that an elite group of players (more elite than current DA) join a more rigorous training environment similar to that which exists in other countries. It is being proposed that this larger group of DA players not play HS soccer. It is also being proposed that HS soccer is the reason our players are behind those of other countries. In our area, HS soccer means 5/6 days a week, 2 hours a day for 2, 2 1/2 months with DA players training 1 day a week with their DA team during that time. It has also been proposed that this experience is ruining or holding back our players. I do not believe this is true and believe that it is at least possible that there is some benefit to HS play. The larger issue to me is the size of the population included in this. I think there are a large number of players currently playing in DA, benefitting from that level of play and coaching. They are good enough to be there but are not likely to be pro or national team players. I do not think this decision is in their best interest. And yes, they have the choice- play somewhere else. I do not think the "benefit" to the elite of the elite is worth the loss to the other players. If the goal is to develop our best to be the best go for it- Create true academies (associated with our MLS teams?) sign kids at 14-15, have them go to school half days and train the rest of their time, expose them to pro level training and coaching, etc. and let kids and families who want that route go for it. The current option forces a large number of excellent players to choose between playing for their school (which many want to do for various reasons) and playing at an appropriate level the remaining 10 months of the year.
Can you be more specific on what their "loss" is? To me it is not a loss for the type of player you are describing to spend those 2 and 1/2 months working with their DA team instead of their High school team. It is that simple. As I see it one of the biggest problems with youth soccer in the U.S. is the terrible training session to game ratio. From the obsession with tournaments to High school soccer. The only real reason for them to play high school soccer is because the "excitement" parents get when seeing two to three games a week against their local "rival" schools, instead of having to drive them to training and travel long distances to play teams that match their level of skill. I think High school soccer may be a great "life" experience, but not necessarily a great "soccer" experience. If you think your kid is missing out on a "life" experience by spending that time in a DA. instead of playing high school soccer, then maybe the answer is to find another high school activity to get that high school experience like music or art or drama.
Look, without sounding too cocky, I know what type of environment is beneficial and what is restricting/limiting. HS soccer is not an environment that can benefit the elite soccer player who the country or system is trying to develop into one day being a competitive international player, equal to the players in other leading nations. I can use my prior knowledge and experience in the game to draw my own conclusions. On the other side, you can use your own observations or experiences (and knowledge of the game, depending if you have played and at what level). Mine tell me that those who played HS have been restricted. The solution is that players are given a choice and a year long commitment is demanded of them towards the DA program. These DAs are investing in these elite players. The HSs are not investing in them. By turning the DA program into a full year program, in essence it become more rigorous training environment. But is also calculated in terms of amount and purpose of training as well as number of games played. HS soccer doesn't care about that. Just look at how long the season is, how many practices and games the players go through in that short period of time. Also the coaches are school teachers with no long-term plan. With them potentially losing some elite players to the DAs, it opens the doors for other players who otherwise wouldn't have the chance to play on Varsity or even any level of HS soccer. If these HS coaches really know what they are doing, they will develop their players and still enjoy good teams and good seasons. Therefore they may not miss the elite players. Nor will the HS program. What benefit is there? It is said that the players are held back because they are away from their DAs, spending only one day a week at best. Their DA coaches know where the players stand and what they need to do for some continuation of work and development. The HS coaches are not going to base their training just on a few odd DA players in their program. The training is aimed at the general needs of all players in the HS teams. But that in many cases is not what the DA players need or can benefit from. How do you know who is going to be pro and who isn't? The gains for the elite players do not come at the expense for anyone's losses. All players have options and are free to make their own choices and follow their own destiny - play DA, play HS, play non-DA, play College, don't play College, go to Europe, etc. The fact is that we are coming to crossroads where we need to separate the players, just like it happens at the early ages with rec and travel. Here are your choices, choose your path. Ideally that is what should be happening and needs to be happening. But the transition will happen slowly because a sudden change will shock a lot of people. Just look at how people react now to this change about DA and HS. How long has it taken to occur? Nothing wrong with that. Choices always need to be made, success requires sacrifices and risks. Some will chose DA, others will chose HS, either way at both programs there will be doors open for people who previously didn't have these doors open. Both programs will continue to exist and do what they do and there will be plenty of players for all. People may be upset that traditions are broken, but that is a necessary step in order to move forward. We need someone to think and do what is best for the talented and elite players. HSs have never done that nor would anyone expect them to. Therefore a program like the DA has to and it does. You can choose to support it or you can choose to criticize it. You see, again there is choice.....
1)...and just how many of these players are actually playing in the outfield on a reasonably regular basis for any of the worlds top clubs...???...don't bother checking:...the answer is zero...(Fulham ain't "one of the worlds' top clubs".... 2) Bullshit. The self proclaimed "Elite Clubs" are intersted in one thing...and it ain't (and never will be) "player development"...here's a clue:...it's green...it folds...and it goes in their pockets...
This response has no connection to the part you quote from my post. It must've been meant for another part of my post. Nevertheless, I agree....Fulham ain't one of the top teams in the World. Pot? There are some clubs who do care about player development and there are some who care only about "the green that folds in their pockets". They also care about "winning". They all need money from somewhere to function though. But that is a problem with the "pay-to-play" system. Do you have any suggestion how to solve that problem, smarty pants?
This thread is supposed to be about the DA going to a 10-month program and forbidding DA players from playing in HS. It seems to me that if your assertion was correct, going to a 10-month DA is the absolute last thing they would do, because it will drive away some kids who otherwise would have played in DA.
And I think this is my point. We are not talking about changing the system entirely, creating "true" academies, etc. The recommendation is to tell academy kids that they cannot play HS. I think this will force some of them to drop out of academy for various reasons. The cost (some good players will drop out of the best training environment) benefit (2 months of additional training) analysis doesn't work in my view. We make too many decisions in sport in our country that force kids out before their potential is known. PS And this Is NOT meant sarcastically- Thank you for your first paragraph allowing that we all develop opinions based on our experiences. These boards can be frustrating as those who disagree are too easily dismissed as less experienced, stupid or worse.
If the kids are dropping out of MLS academy so they can play HS soccer then they have no business playing academy in the first place as their pro-priorities are not in the right place. And that is exactly why kids should be in the MLS DA's - so they can become professionals. Not all will of course make the grade, but that's the reality of the MLS DA purpose. Dropping out of NON-MLS DA's so they can play HS Soccer...well....I'd argue the same thing. They have no business being in DA in the first place then. They are taking themselves out of the view of the MLS pro teams, and reducing their university scholarship opportunities. DA should be for the very serious/dedicated only. Not the ones that just happen to be good enough.
I disagree, The DA's are filled with very talented kids who have already, for the most part, given up every other activity besides soccer. They are very dedicated. How are they "reducing university scholarship opportunites? Very good players, properly matched with level of play, being faced with a choice with limited benefit that will drive some of them out of that level of play. I do not think it is worth it. If the proposal was "take the MLS academies and make them full time" or something similar, fine. As it is, the proposed cure doesn't solve the problem and does more potential damage than good (IMO)
Dropping other sports yes - but leaving the highest level to play a lower level...suggests to me DA is not the place for them. It's already been shown more scholarships (percentage-wise) go to DA players than non-DA players, thus reducing their opportunities.
Ok I think that I understand what you are saying. If they choose to quit DA (thus reducing college scholarship opportunities) they were not that into it any way. My point is why force players to make that decision for a (IMO) limited benefit of additional training opportunities with DA? Some good (potentially great) players will be forced out of the highest levels of the game. The benefit to the rest is not that significant. I have spoken to many DA players and families with VERY high aspirations and talent and this is a VERY difficult decision for most of them, even those who would sacrifice their left nut to "make it". And yeah, life is tough and they have to choose eventuallly etc. but lets be sure the decision they are being forced to make actually solves/addresses the problem.
The players would NOT be "forced out". They'd be making a conscious decision. And by doing so proving they aren't as "committed" to the sport as one might hope a DA player is. Kids should be entering DA for the following reasons in this order; 1. University 2. Professional soccer (reversed if part of an MLS DA) Pro soccer is a realistic opportunity for those who face the MLS DA's in league/conference play and as such have a chance to be recruited into that program. They are not being "forced out" but are being "forced" to make a choice. And that's exactly what it is - a choice. A gamble. What NO ONE has been able to answer - or seems willing to - on this or another board re: this level of play near my home is: "Why play HS soccer and put to risk the massive financial committment and time committment that DA is - when HS soccer is a proven lower level of play"? That risk being injury of course. Honestly, if I was investing that much time and money into DA (for the non-MLS DA's) there is NO WAY my kid would be putting that investment at risk by playing on a lesser team. Drop-in with buddies? of course! other recreational activity such as family ski trips - of course. Kids gotta be kids. But I'd not be registering them into another organized sport/team. No way. The cost-risk-benefit ratio is too high.
Uh, Yes, despite semantics some would be forced out. Staus quo= players can keep playing at appropriate level Change to new rules= players forced out because of their choice to play HS My point is WHY MAKE THEM CHOOSE WHEN 2 MONTHS OF TRAINING WONT MAKE A RATS ASS DIFERENCE IN THE LONG TERM OF THEIR DEVELOPMENT AND HS MAY ACTUALLY PROVIDE SOMEVALUE? As to your other point- players play HS for the same reason they go skiing with their family and play drop in with friends, etc.:kids are kids. HS soccer means the chance to be BMOC, playin front of larger crowds, play in games with a lot of emotion (if limited talent) be the star (and not all DA players are stars in that environment) As I heard one playersay:"your girlfriend ever comesee you play club?" They also learn soemthing in that environment- how to be the star, play in an emotional game, handle the attention, carry a team...
You are spot on here with all of this. Especially for the U-16 kids that don't even drive yet, they just have a lot of different motivations to be taking a step like that. That's why other sports typically don't take kids until 18, like minor league baseball. Just the lack of focus and maturity, especially in the younger ages. Some of these kids want to win a state title to augment their resume besides just national or regional club championships. They want to take their school team on their back and go all the way. It's just too young in my opinion to force kids into these kinds of decisions. I think the Fire has signed 2 kids out of their academies in the last 3 years and none have made the roster yet.
You and socfan60 are missing something critical here: your approach is the one that forces some kids into doing what they don't want to do. Suppose that we keep things the way they currently are in most of the country and have DA take the fall off so kids can play in HS. You, however, know you want to do all you can to become a professional soccer player, and you're already at a disadvantage growing up here in the US instead of in Europe or Latin America. You want to do everything you can to make up for that disadvantage, instead of falling further behind. What do we tell you? "Sorry, kid, we're not going to be doing DA for three months out of every year so that other kids can be the BMOC on their HS teams." (Whose attendance, BTW, won't be much higher than the attendance for their club games--we're not talking Friday Night Lights here--so I'm not sure how big a BMOC they're going to be.) That's tough--particularly for someone in the cold weather part of the country where outdoor soccer playing opportunities ar already limited. So I'm with Bettermirror. Now, I agree that the 10-month DA approach will squeeze some kids out of the DA who would otherwise participate. (In fact, that problem is probably worse here in the Northeast than in the rest of the country due to the number of kids in private schools here that require kids to play on sports teams in lieu of PE; it's hard to see how to reconcile that with participation in a DA club that forbids you from playing HS soccer. So for those kids, it's not simply a choice to play club soccer instead of HS soccer.) But if DA goes to 10 months, those kids who don't participate in a 10-month DA have an alternative: play for one of the many strong non-DA clubs that will take a break during the HS season. In contrast, if DA doesn't go to 10 months, kids who want to dedicate that amount of effort to their development have no alternative.
^yep. 1. What does BMOC mean? 2. That kid has a pretty poor girlfriend - mine always came to watch me play club and I played club out of town so every game was an away game! My teammates had gf's out to watch them too.
First, sorry to quote so many responses at once, but I just wanted to say a few things that are related to all of them. Good discussion, I think. Bettermirror is responding well to you Socfan60 and I agree with many of the things. I'm just going to add a few more thoughts here and there. I think making the players to choose between DA and HS is a step in the right direction towards expanding the role these Academies can and should play in developing our talented elite players. Maybe this step will lead one day to creating "true" academies with residence like Bradenton in Florida. A transformation like that requires easy steps, as majority of people would struggle with bigger change. Just look how you and others are struggling to accept this change about DA vs HS. You got to look at the big picture and what can that lead to in the future. IMO there are too many irrelevant decisions and not enough important decisions made. Also, many decisions are made by the parents rather than the players or when the players make them, they are forced by the parents. It seems like many parents are terrified by the possibility or desire by their kids to be a pro soccer player. They don't believe in it, they think is too risky, etc. A lot of things are risky in life, but usually that is when the biggest gains and pay-offs are collected. It is never too late to go to College if pro career doesn't happen. But the window and possibilities to make it as pro soccer player are limited and the best chance is around the age of 18 (in order to be a better pro and better competitor internationally). Of course, a player can turn pro after College too, but then he has to play "catch up" with the rest of the World. And that is what we have been doing in the US. It is not good enough and it is time to change that.....little by little. Sure, you are welcome. Everyone has their reasons for forming their opinions. Good response, I agree. Not everyone. Some are part of the DA for bragging rights. Others are truly talented, but if they prefer to play HS soccer, then how much are they worth investing in their development for more serious career in the sport? The most athletic scholarships are given to players scouted in DA events and games. The benefits are less limited in the DAs than their in HS soccer. You just don't see the potential this step can lead to. They are not going to make the Academies full-time until players choose to omit HS soccer. No one is going to invest that much time and money for players who are not solely committed to the Academy program and its purpose. Yep. Spot on. HS soccer is not an appropriate level for many elite DA players. It is waste of their time, talent and not the right environment. It has no value for their development. There is a lot more of all that at DA games. Plus if players are so concerned with "the girlfriends" then they have the wrong priorities at that stage. If they want to be the star, then put that effort at their DA team. Being the star there will get them noticed. Being the star at lower level, smaller pond, etc., wont benefit them in their potential future career (College or pro). Those who desire less or are satisfied with less, wont get too far. There is no doubt that some will prefer HS for those reasons. Therefore, they don't deserve to be part of the DA, because of their character.
Explain how then kids are turning pro in many other countries in Europe or South America between the ages of 16 and 18, some even earlier. Are the kids in other countries more mature at those ages than the American kids? They must be, because they don't have "mommy" and "daddy" hold their hand through life until they graduate from College. I disagree, it is not too young to make these decisions. But you seem to think that it is better to think about state titles rather than going pro or dedicating yourself to a better program for better future gains. I can agree with this point and that is a different topic of discussion. The MLS teams need to show more incentives to signing young player to pro contracts and giving them better opportunities. But at the same time, the players need to be better, more developed and more committed, to deserve more that what they are getting now. It is a two-way street.
This may upset a few people but generally European and Asian kids are more mature at the younger ages than Amenricans. Can't speak for South Americans. My question is that we have a number of Academy teams. Just over 80 in regional leagues. How is this different than the old regional leagues from USYS? And how many teams will they accept? or how big can it get? Yes, I get it they have a higher training to playing ratio. The coaching is better quality (even though the coaches are the same). The competition is better, although it's similar teams playing similar teams. Yes these clubs now attract a few more players from further afield (although my local academy program has always drawn from far afield). Is the quality of play that much better than what it was? I would argue that across the board the quality of play has improved significantly. As I watch the U littles today compared to 10 years ago, the skill and technical level has improved dramatically. I have also heard of non academy teams and clubs going toward no high school. So what really are the differences other than the cost? Thanks.
My local "premier" (youth) elite league is also going away from HS play for its players. It's an 8 "franchise" (not team) league, and feeds directly into the Whitecaps. It's not certain yet re: HS to my knowledge. Though I am not an "insider" I do know one.
Re: scholarships - Already 5 sounders academy kids have signed on to major Washington universities. My guess is they were also told "we want you to play on our Sounders u23 team"...but that's a guess on my part. You can be sure more are to come from Sounders re: scholarships. I am sure every MLS DA could boast them same except Whitecaps whose players are ineligible I believe if they played PDL Pro - which most of their u18's did....? But I am not totally certain of that.