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Discussion in 'New York Cosmos' started by evan eleven, Nov 12, 2011.
I've used this comment before, but it applies here, too: I hope you're wearing a parachute up there.
Totti will end his career at Roma. Unlike Del Piero, Totti spent his entire pro career there and it's almost a synonimous of the yellow-reds...
There will never be the 1950's Madrid again, nor the 60's Santos, nor the 70's Ajax or Bayern. Still, Madrid, Santos, Ajax, Bayern are there, and those that wear their kits -no matter how bad they are- are always aware that they are part of that history as well.
Why not Cosmos?
Oh definitely. Mark Liveric went to San Jose in 1976 and had a great season but he did end up back with the Cosmos in 1979 and did pretty well. From 1975 to 1976 the Cosmos were like night and day but that isn't uncommon in the world of soccer. I remember Inter Milan did a lot of that when Moratti bought the club. They went from being 5th from the bottom (winning the UEFA Cup in the same year) and the only holdovers I remember were maybe Zanetti, Berti and Bergomi. Moratti cleaned house to become a super club and I think that was what Warner's tried to do with the Cosmos during that time.
Maybe he still a draw and I think he can still play to a point but I'm not so sure if Beckham can continue his trek for much longer. I don't see him being a great factor for many more years to come. I mean he will be 38 next year and unless he will perform like a 41 year old El Pibe Carlos Valderrama, how long can he keep it up? Is there really stopping father time?
Having the Superstars is nice and im sure they will get some if they eventually get to MLS but honestly - i want to see the team focus on youth development.
To me - the best part of supporting a club, is following a kids progression through the teams system. Kind of like Baseball.
I really hope they go back to the Academy Model eventually and I can watch the kids come along the way.
I seriously question the Academy Model. I know MLS teams are using this tool and its fashionable to talk about and maybe its still in the early stages to see the fruits but I've yet seen many players rise through the youth ranks. I mean top leagues and teams in the world don't really have too many academy players on their rosters. You look at Man United and they had a lot of players come through the ranks but that was 20 years ago and this doesn't happen too much anymore. Same with Chelsea , Milan, Juventus and Inter. I don't really follow La Liga; Barca & Real so I can't judge them. As a rule though, most leagues might have academy players loaned out or sold to other clubs, divisions and leagues but if you have 1 or 2 players making it from an academy team into the top level A side once every 5 years, that will even be too many. Looking at Roma in NYC who has been an above or average team for years only has or had Totti and De Rossi rise to the top team but each one was developed by the club with 8-10 years in between and no one else on currently their roster that I can see has really made splash from the youth primavera sides. Same with Lazio and Fiorentina. Maybe you had Delpiero at Juve or Maldini at Milan come up through the youth teams but again that was years ago and the last one I remember who came up through the ranks at Inter was Bergomi but that was also over 30 years ago. Even MLS sides have relied heavily on colleges since 1996. If anything, I think this new NASL or MLS should focus or work more closely with the NCAA and/or maybe work their reserve team programs as well as the USL/PDL leagues as opposed to just thinking about developing under 19 youth players...
Right and Man Untied 20 years ago was a team with a clean balance sheet - now the new model is an owner comes in - buys the club and they have to float Manchester United on the NYSE to pay off debts, yet are still able to make 50 million dollar bids for Van Persie.
Thats better? Cause to me thats just not fair.
and PS - i support United
Exactly its not fair but what is? Seriously, 20 years is like an eternity and this just doesn't happen in today's soccer world anymore. Do you see Man United , Liverpool , Chelsea or even Arsenal with academy players? Maybe they stick around for a summer tournament or two but usually they are all loaned out and sign or are traded to different clubs. With foreigners invading teams and fans and owners wanting to win right away, there just isn't time or room to focus and develop the youth.
As far as doing it in the country, I don't foresee it as an option. I spoke to 5 different academy players just tonight for example at the San Jose Earthquakes Chicago Fire game and they all have ambition to go to college and they said they all have letters from major schools and from what they told me the only advantage with the academy is they get to train with the pros but that is about it. Why in the world would they want to pass up a free ride/scholarship and get a free education to make $30k in MLS or NASL and possibly risk a career ending injury? I certainly wouldn't and I doubt there are many American players ages 18-20 who would.
Thats interesting for sure - and it also just proves how far the game still has to go in this country.
In Europe or South America, playing for an academy is a dream opportunity and you worry about the consequences of that decision later.
Yeah its true but in Europe, its a different story completely. When I worked at fiorentina 10 years ago for example, many academy players were worth millions of Euros. Its actually a huge market and a money making industry to sell these players to other clubs and tiers or in the 2nd, 3rd & 4th (Serie B, C & C2) divisions but a lot of the kids are paid handsomely worth millions of Euros and they also live free of charge and train in the morning and study in the afternoon. They rarely end up with the first team and end up making their bones elsewhere. If they do in fact make it big, the club might buy them back but its very rare that a player comes up from a club he grew up with. Many players though still finish their schooling even as youth players also because they know the chances of making it big time are slim. Stars like Andrea Pirlo for example got his degree/ trade certificate in accounting as did Mario Balotelli & Davide Santon.
I actually think in theory, it would be a great idea for MLS clubs to start young and develop players and maybe I'll be proven wrong someday but for now in reality, I just don't see it coming to fruition. For this reason I feel MLS and NASL should work closely with NCAA college programs for their players.....
You question the academy system? Where are young players supposed to play? NCAA, really? You really think that college can develop talent just as well as a professional environment. Pirlo and Bolatelli may be educated, but they wouldn't be Pirlo and Bolatelli if they were playing from 14-18 for South Brunswick High School and 18-22 for Ramapo college.
Messi came up through Barca's youth system.
The leagues already utilized the NCAA. Whether we like the college game or not, almost every American born player (and many green card players who grew up in the USA) on MLS and NASL rosters were on or played college soccer at one point. Therefore, you really think its going to stop just because all of a sudden someone wants to start an academy? Even the academy players want to go to college so I don't see how you are going to prevent these youths from getting a college education with the slight hope they will become a Leo Messi. Will these academies pay for their housing or will they pay for their education if their careers don't pan out and will parents allow them to quit school to become a soccer player? I know the Generation Adidas set up does this for maybe only 10-20 players at time however, I don't see how a club will do this for all their youth players. I'll believe that when I see it. Aside from all that though, how many Messi's are born every year? If one is born once every 20-30 or 40 years, it would be a miracle. Anyway, to each his own and maybe this is strictly my opinion which no one has to agree with but I seriously don't see it happening....I guess time will tell.
Whether it's going to happen or not is a different thing than thinking college is a better youth system than professional academies. I would bet that everyone of the top 100 players in the world emerged from a youth academy. I really don't get why you call them a failure.
I'm not necessarily calling them a failure and never did. I just said I question how viable the concept really is in this day and age and whether it will still work especially in the USA. If you go up and down the rosters of the top teams and top leagues in the world, you will not see too many players who came up with from their youth team. Going back to Balotelli , he didn't come up with Inter as he actually came up with Lumezzane, then was sold to Inter and then sold to Man City before he turned 20. Andrea Pirlo played for 4 different clubs, entered drug rehabilitation until landing at Milan then was sold to Juventus but he actually played on Brescia's youth teams so the club didn't benefit from having him in their youth academy and by selling or getting rid of him before he made a name for himself, they didn't really reap huge rewards either. If anything he became more of player at Milan , a team he was not raised at. Angelo Di Livio came up with Roma youth team but never played with them and ended up at 4 different clubs until making a splash at Juventus. Again, this solidifies my initial point on how many players do not end up with the clubs they came up with and the youth academies, whether they are good and/or work or not, don't really filter into the A side and its very rare that clubs benefit from developing a youth player. Again, if 1,2 or even 3 players are found once every 10 years, that will be too many but it remains to be seen if even that many are found. Again, I actually like the youth academy idea and like I said before, the academy players in Europe are usually sold to other clubs and and leagues and many teams make a profit from these transfers but that doesn't happen here. Even in Europe top clubs loan out younger players within the same leagues to make their bones but that doesn't really happen here and I still have serious doubts it will work in the end. Just my opinion.....
Well Falvo, we agree that many of the upper echelon clubs bought their players who were raised in other teams' academies, though Barcelona is a huge and very successful exception to that. We don't agree, however, that they are "not viable". They are viable and extremely important in developing top players throughout the world.
Well, you sort of answer your own question. "Top Teams" generally do not need to follow a youth development model because they have the financial power to forgo the tedious task of grooming players and simply poach or sign other clubs talent. Thing is, every team in the world has players that came up from someone's youth set up...if not their own.
Teams in more finacially stapped regions of the world have clubs built primarily on the backs of a steady youth system, especially in South America or other leagues outside the mega leagues of Europe.
A league like MLS or NASL that has either restrictions on salary and/or international slots definately needs needs to ensure they can develop players to fill out the squad and increase the club's talent floor. That system will eventually lead to development of players that join the first team, go to college, transfer to other clubs, or get loaned to other divisions....all is good for soccer in the USA and for the clubs, especially if one of them ends up getting sold for 1-3 million and that money canbe reinvested in youth development.
Actually, I meant top and average teams to tell the truth. Anyway, so be it. Again I'm not saying I'm against the development of the youth team players, on the contrary. Time will tell though if this youth academy thing will work out in the long run but I for one, will believe it when I see it. Maybe we should address the subject in 5-8 years time? In the meantime, I wish the Cosmos all the best!
Falvo: You have too read through the squads of Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, there are several academy players in all thos squads, and some are important players in their starting lineup....
To tell you the truth, I don't really know , care about or follow the EPL all that much. Looking at the rosters of those squads though, most of the players with the exception of maybe 1-2 players and possibly a few foreigners (which I don't consider to be true academy players as they came up with other squads abroad and should foreigners really count?), are almost all under 23 years of age. This reinforces my earlier belief that not all youth team players filter into the A side. Not including Giggs, Scholes, Gerrard and Carragher who came up 15-20 years ago, it remains to be seen if those youth team players will be there and remain with the squad when they are the prime playing age of 24-30.
Man United - Jonathan Evans(24), Daniel Welbeck (age 21), Thomas Cleverley(22).
Arsenal- Henri Lansbury (21) Kyle Bartley(21), Kieran Gibbs (22) Emmanuel Frimpon (20) Jack Wilshere (20)
Liverpool-Steven Gerrard(age 32), Jay Spearing (age 23)James Carragher (age 34)Jack Robinson(18) Jonathon Flanagan (19)Nathan Eccleston(21)Martin Kelly(22)
Beckham is a certain type of player. He can play very close to the way he is playing now (which is really good level) in 2 years. Long passes, corners, occasion long shot, quick combinations playing mostly flatfooted. He can play deep lying midfielder which means he doesn't get punished for lack of speed. He is a fit player.
Beckham is having his best season ever I think this year. 6 goals all more than 20 yards. Yes, he is gradually losing it, but for MLS, he is still one of the top players.
If Beckham was a goalscorer or defender that needed quickness or had to run down guys in midfield all day- it wouldn't work. He will rely on positioning and occasional sprinting- as he does now.
Don't forget- he is a really passionate guy. If he wants it, I think it can happen. Also, they will curb his games to 20-22 that season
Maybe he will keep on trucking. I'm sure MLS loves him in the league. Looking back, I myself never really cared for Beckham's style nor did I ever really think he was or is as good as his star status or all the hype. As time passes, thinking back about his signing more and more though, I think (in retrospect) it did the league wonders in terms of exposure. I'm sure there were other better players who would have done a lot more on the pitch but not so sure though what kind of visibility they would have brought to the table. Maybe getting a Kaka, Ronaldo or Messi into the league can equal it but even then though, not sure if they will bring what Becks brought.
I'm not the biggest fan either of his style- but he draws an unbelievable amount of fans and his brand is pure gold to a startup franchise. People just don't understand what incredibly heavy lifting it will be to have any impact in the NYC market. Beckham is a key piece and bottom line- he can still play better than most MLS players. There is no reasonable alternative, or has there been to him in the last 20-30 years- singularly powerful brand.
Yes I agree looking back, don't think any other player will have equaled his drawing power. As an Italian -American I would have loved to see a Baggio, Mancini, Del Piero, Zola or a Totti in the league but none of those guys will have filled a stadium. Ibrahimovic, Inzaghi and Vieri would have definitely pulled in a huge amount of goals but not sure if people will have flocked to the stadium to see them. Well they may have after they started scoring but I don't think they will have come to MLS in their primes. Using Ibra as an example, I'm sure they wouldn't have.
Major League Soccer is closing in on a final deal with state and city officials for a $300 million, 25,000-seat, state-of-the-art soccer-stadium complex in Flushing Meadows Corona Park, The Post has learned.
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/soccer_it_to_em_ljhnZcOlSAGJHJ6dmzqbgK#ixzz23RJFUBlEGood news or bad news for the Cosmos ?