After a bit more time to have things sink in, I can see the merits of this move. As noted, Payne has experience in hiring these types of people (Nowak and Olsen, both of whom had success with DC, though Nowak obviously hasn't done so well recently). And Nelsen certainly seems to have the kinds of qualities needed to be a good coach. But I still can't get my head around the fact that he'll be playing for QPR possibly until May while still being the official coach of the club. Boggles the mind. 2013 was a lost cause anyway, but it actually looks like we'll be an even bigger train wreck than Chivas run by Vergara/Chelis next season.
Point to one line in my post where I mentioned Mariner supporters?? All that was said was that I don't understand all the crying about this hire...was Mariner that great of a coach that a guy with no coaching experience couldn't possibly achieve at least the results that Mariner did?? So...are we any worse off today than we were yesterday? No. Do we possibly have the potential to be better with an actual system and a coach who isn't a total embarrassment to the club and the league (Andrew Wiedeman is one of the best finishers of the modern era)...I'm willing to bet on yes. I don't know sweet FA about Nelson. I don't know if he will be a good coach or not. I don't know if he'll coach an effective system or not. What I do know is that Mariner is neither a good coach, nor did he implement an effective MLS system. (ironic considering he was our 'MLS' guy who has no f'n clue how to win in MLS) So I am going to look at the glass as being half full and say that although the situation is far from ideal, I'm putting my trust in Mr. Payne, I'm assuming he's done his due diligence and has made a decision that he believes is in the best interest of the club - that is exactly what he was brought here to do.
To be honest, I expected more from Mariner. Everyone outside of Toronto seems to think he's the right guy for the job. But after half a season of kick and chase tactics, poor player selection, poor use of substitutes and so on, I'm not sad to see him go. I'm not completely sold on Nelsen, but here is one thing: he's been in the same organization as Payne before. And when was the last time that we had the coach and management actually getting along and working together? I'm guessing it was back when Mo was both the coach and the management.
So, as many questions as answers in the presser. However we must see how it works out. One fact emerged from the presser. No new players introduced or promised. All will depend on whether our injured D.P's will ever be fully recovered.and able to play to effect.
One thing about Mariner...and I'm not a defender of his, hated him from the get go....but I keep hearing all this "poor player selection" stuff. In truth, there were times when he could barely field a full bench....and that wasn't really his fault. He did have a lack of depth especially with the injuries piling on. Strange substitutions? Yeah....although again, he really didn't have much to work with. Again, don't take this as Mariner defending. I'm not sad to see him go at all. I'll miss his shorts though.
It wasn't ideal for him, but the way he handled those tough situations was poor at best. Maund in midfield, Ecks at CB, and Hall at RB? Or since he couldn't fill the bench with first choice players, he chose to just not fill the bench. And he didn't exactly do anything to avoid that situation, fielding the same XI game after game until they burned out. Making 30+ year olds run and run and run for 90 minutes. Playing Frings with a nagging injury for 90 minutes (and then criticizing him in the media for making a mistake )
what. he fielded short benches when he left guys like Cordon and Makubuya in Toronto. yeah, those kids would likely not get a chance to play, but Mariner deliberately had a short bench
I'm glad someone has brought this up, because not many people seemed to talk about this during the time PM was in charge. Mariner came in basically labeled as the brains of New England in their golden days, and it was generally accepted back then that he was possibly the most solid addition of the trio we hired. In fact a lot of people were calling for him to replace Winter when things were going wrong. IIRC, don't think anyone knew at that point of the egomaniacal and buffoonish sides of him we saw over the last year. Who knows, this might have developed because Mariner had seen what it was like to be a manager at Plymouth and didn't want to just go back to a background role like the one he had when he was hired in 2011. Maybe it's a result of the dysfunctional setup we had in the last two years, and working under Payne might (might) have changed that. Point is, first looks can be deceiving. Previous MLS success doesn't necessarily mean current success. Payne might well turn out the same way as Mariner. Similarly, Nelsen could prove to be a brilliant manager. Or maybe Nelson and QPR can negotiate a sooner departure than May. We're just going to have to wait and see and accept that 2013, in the early stages at least, is going to be a real struggle but it's a price we may have to pay to see a managerial team that's actually on the same page at BMO. We're going to be a joke in the short-term - and we already knew we were nowhere near challenging for the playoffs even before the first whispers of the coaching change - and hiring a manager who still has playing duties is still ridiculous. But quite honestly this move does make sense in lots of ways, and I think it's foolish of anyone to focus only on the (admittedly major) QPR technicalities and miss out on the bigger picture. That's exactly what I did when this first surfaced, but I take that back. I'm going to wait until we know more about this before abandoning all hope.
To add to that, he said at the town halls that players like Cordon and Booyah reportedly shat themselves (his words not mine) whenever he looked down the bench at them. Still, they're never going to learn or gain confidence if Mariner would rather have an empty space on the bench instead of a player who doesn't have to come one, but can at least learn from the atmosphere. I doubt Maund was all that psyched to be thrust into an unnatural position where everyone, on the pitch, in the stands, or on message boards, was inevitably going to tear him apart.
Payne said Frings is training and planning to come back in pre-season which doesn't surprise me, Kovermans on the other side of it you don't hear too much about him and his recovery progress. Same to lose him cause he knows how to find the back of the net but I sort of understand buying him out because of fitness issues.
Not to mention dumping players like Soolsma and shipping out Plata. I agree that he didn't have a lot to work with, but he made the situation worse by keeping a short bench and playing players out of their natural positions even when he didn't have to.
The dumping of Soolsma especially annoyed me to no end. I assumed at the time it was to clear an international spot, but I'm not sure we used it.
Up to that point, you were the only one making this a "Nelsen v Mariner" comparison (I see, since I am late in responding, a Mariner discussion has ensued). The balance of the discussion was about is this the right move for TFC ("this" being the hiring of Neslen not the firing of Mariner). Not only is that question impossible to answer (until yesterday no one in Toronto had heard of Fran O'Learly (our defacto coach until Nelsen extricates himself from his QPR obligations) and there is absolutely no idea what kind of coach Nelsen is/will become. The much hated Mariner trait/style of hoofball is an interesting topic....does anyone have any idea what style of play, either, O'Leary or Nelsen prefer? The answer to that is absolutely yes. I am of the firm belief that as long as there is a tomorrow (apologies to the Mayan readers) there is always the hope/possibility that it will be better than today. As I said much earlier, there is every possibility that Kevin Payne is right and the Ryan Nelsen is born to the role of head coach or manager (depending on what side of the ocean you are when you describe his role). but that does not exclude me from the right to the opinion that we are not the club in the position to be taking that chance. You have the right to be optimistic, and I congratulate you on that, and I agree that Kevin Payne is doing what he believes is in the best interest of the club (why would we expect less) but when he answers the question were there other candidates with a flat "no" then any notion of due diligence has gone. He is acting on his gut (and again he may be right) that this man he has known for a very long time is the right guy. He may be right, he may be wrong.....all that I was saying is that this is not the kind of risk that I am comfortable with TFC taking at this point in their brief history.
as i have already said on other posts, this is absolute madness to hire coaches with no professional experience- and the head coach may not show until May!!- to guide a floundering franchise and reconnect with their loyal fan base that has lost hope-- is this professional football???
That was a well written response. To your point above, I didn't want to believe that Mariner would completely abandon what Winter was doing and revert to a completely different style of play. but then again, TFC was generating most of its offense with long ball counterattacks under Winter so Mariner just preached an even less patient approach to what Winter did. No one knows what style of play Nelsen/O'Leary will install but looking at the players on the roster, it doesn't look like this team is capable of anything other than more hoofball. Hopefully if Peralta and Alex Lopez sign, we'll take a more patient approach to look for the right pass as opposed to look for Koevermans or Hassli at all times.
As a Rovers fan i have alot of time for Nelsen. It is a bit of a surprise to see him going into management/coaching before he has even hung up his boots but i hope he does well for you guys. Not quite sure about giving him the job now, when he might not be able to start until May. When does your season start? He was a top professional as a player and a real leader. As someone has already said previously that doesn't mean he will definately be a top coach/manager but it will hopefully give him a good start. After reading through the last couple of pages, like Rovers, you guys seem to have owner issues. Our owners (Venkys) are awful and we have been in decline ever since they took over. I don't know the details of your owners but i hope Nelsen is given the required support to be able to do his job to the best of his ability. Anyway, i will keep tabs on Toronto and Nelsen (when he joins) and see how he gets on. Hopefully he is a roaring success and then we can swipe him back to be our manager in a few seasons
I think our owner issues are a bit different than yours Ours is a very deep pocketed company that owns multiple teams and venues here and, in each league/team it operates, provides the cash resources to the maximum that the leagues allow (pro sports here are typically governed by spending caps and no more so than MLS). What our owners have never been able to do (with any of their teams, really) is find that formula of management and appropriate spending that has won championships (or even get close).
I think they are replacing him with Roberto Luongo but he won't be available until his contract with Vancouver ends
At least it sounds like your owners have good intentions! I do hope the Nelsen is the missing part to your formula and you guys do well under his leadership.
Thanks for stopping by. The schedule was just released today as a matter of fact. Preseason training usually begins later this month, the first preseason match is on Feb. 9, and the regular season starts March 2.
Haha, no me neither in fairness. adrenaline11, cheers for the info, i always think you will get the best out of a manager if he is able to get alot of his work in during pre-season, so it would be good if Nelsen is released by QPR before pre season starts.
You are correct in your assessment that much like Blackburn, TFC has definite ownership problems. As for whether or not the owners (Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment) have good intentions depends on who you ask. There are those who believe that MLSE only cares about profits and couldn't care less as to how their teams perform on the field. I'm of the camp the believes that while they do care about performance, they are completely clueless as to how to build winning teams. The fact that they have hired Kevin Payne as president is a positive sign in my opinion - it looks as if they are starting to acknowlege the incompetence of their old guard senior management and are realizing that they need to bring in people from the outside. Payne (in case you weren't aware) had a similar role at DC United during the time that Nelsen was there).