Netherlands Brilliant Oranje - Euro Cup 2012 Thread

Well Spain is nr. 1 favorite. Their game also depends less on personal ingenuity and tricks to beat opponents. That stuff runs faster out of steam than the passing game. When you have the best passing game in the world installed and automated, you can repeat it easier over and over again. If Spain win the Euro again, they have done something no other European team has done before. Winning three major tournaments back to back. Xavi however is not at his best this year. I think he is the biggest fish in maintaining this super high level in the passing game. They have less quality strikers at their disposal than Netherlands and lack a certain penetration power overall. Also teams have no shame anymore to defend in their own penalty box as they have such a high status. Look at what England did in a friendly. Capello is gone now though. I think if Spain face Italy they could lose. At Euro 2008 they draw against them. They lost recently in a friendly. Italy could deal with Spain. All in all, they are still the nr 1 favorite. Some claim a decline, but that is IMO more based on wishful thinking. It's interesting to see if Spain can stretch the cyclical nature of football.

Expectations on England are lower than normal. That is very good for them. However, is Terry as a figure going to damage the cohesion in the group? I don't know their trainer other than from name and a few games. England is competing on high level much longer than many other country's (meaning they went pro earlier, including Netherlands), but only played 4 half finals in Euro and WC combined. As much as Hungary to give an indication. Then again they did play loads of quarter finals. They are a very consistent country, without the power to punch through. Their WC win was on their own soil, without qualification games of course, but also over 6 games, not 7. The weird thing is that they had 3 good midfielders in Scholes, Lampard and Gerrard in the same generation more or less, but did nothing with it. This new kid Wilshire is now turning into a injury saga. He would have made a difference for them.

You tend to count them out, but that makes them dangerous.

As Netherlands is in the group they are, there is actually a good chance they advance further than us (being consistent again).

On a side not, Netherlands is also very consistent:

• 1988 advanced from group stage
• 1990 advanced from group stage
• 1992 advanced from group stage
• 1994 advanced from group stage
• 1996 advanced from group stage
• 1998 advanced from group stage
• 2000 advanced from group stage
• 2002 did not qualify
• 2004 advanced from group stage
• 2006 advanced from group stage
• 2008 advanced from group stage
• 2010 advanced from group stage
• 2012 qualified for the Euro in any case

Over this period only Germany can rival Netherlands in Europe, but they didn't advanced from group stage in 2000 and 2004, making have Netherlands the strongest group advancing record of any European country over more than 20 years now.

 

Spain is in decline because their style under del Bosque is anti-football. They play keep away and don't attack. I don't get how anyone can enjoy watching them. The potential to play amazing football is there, but it's wasted

 

Attack us all you wan , Ronaldo and nani will eat up your no name defenders on the counter lol

Too bad we dont have manic he!!!


Trolololol

 

Just like they did against Poland? : D

 

Who is attacking Portugal?
We don't talk about teams who are inferior to us..

trololol

 

They were 2nd to Denmark in the qualifiers & drew 0-0 to Bosnia in the 2nd leg. Portugal can go far but their 1st priority should be not to finish last because given the condition at present Portugal will probably finish last.

Problem with Ronaldo is he does not have as many great players in Portugal & maybe the whole team does not play for him so he probably leaves his balls home. I have never seen him doing outstandingly well consistently for the NT.

And Nani is good player too who can cause problems but he is not on the level where he can eat the defenders as such. Anyways should be a good tournament as all 4 teams are ranked in Top 4,

 

I just realized that we now have a condition with 3 good keepers at the back, while in the time with van der Sar we had often only him as a stand out. Remember that game against Austria where from corners we conceded 3 goals with Timmer on goal? We also had Waterreus, de Goei and maybe a few others that don't pop up to me in this second. Those were better than Timmer, but not that good either. The condition of having 3 good ones or 1 excellent one? I choose the latter probably. Van der Sar was almost always fit for us.

It's also funny pundit Derksen said not long ago there are no good keepers raised anymore in the Netherlands and a few years later we have 3 good ones. I think Zoet is also a keeper that will soon make waves. He has been excellent for U21 and RKC.

 

Even though we got beaten by Russia in the Quarters, I still prefer watching 2008 video's above 2010 videos. I even prefer a 2008-like performance above a 2010-like performance.

 

Totally agree, though we started to play 4-2-3-1 in that tournament IIRC. There is a lot you can do in the way you execute different systems. It also has to be noted that many goals came from counters. However it looked all so sprinkle and fresh. Also the celebration with all the kids after the every group game and the masses in Bern where candy for the eye. Happy feelings.

Here is by the way an interesting article from BBC about the fitness coach from Russia, who was a Dutchman. It's about the audio part half way the article.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/9239342.stm

He pretty much indirectly destroys van Basten tactics there.

 

When it comes to who needs to be left back, You guys are forgetting the biggest and most important thing here. How will the left back contribute to the offense and provide a balanced attack. If Van der Wiel is the only guy supporting the attack from the right side, holland will be easier to stop. Thats why Schaars is the ideal replacement. Because if you watched pieters playing for holland. Defensively he didn't do anything amazing, but he delivered lots of crosses and was there if the winger was in trouble and needed someone to pass to. And he was comfortable on the ball. Schaars Plays defensive midfield for sporting lisbon, which i saw him many times go on the wing and have to stop a guy, although in midfield. but offensively, he floats nice passes for van wolfswinkel, and has smart link up plays, one two down the line and gives quality crosses. So he's there for the offense. and remember van bronkhorst started out as a winger. and was slow at the world cup, and it worked out. If boularouz plays, or anita, they don't contribute very much offensively, and jetro willems, played bad against valencia, had to be subbed for an out of shape pieters in the europa league

Quite Simply, Schaars is the man, Because what he offers offensively, he balances out the point of attack and is a comfortable passer.

 

I must say I get quite frustrated about using Valencia and Feyenoord as a reason nót to use Willems. At that time he played 2 weak matches, while being great against teams such as FC Twente for example. Especially after he got some rest he has been as good as Pieters in his best times, if not better. If that's a reason not to use a leftback, we can't use any leftback anymore. Take for example the Netherlands - Hungaria. It gets fun after 5:00.



First goal: wrongly eflected by Pieters, second goal: marking error by Pieters

See how the left side is being overrun? And that's against Hungaria, not even a good team. Pieters has the habit of running along with the winger and let him give a cross.

Emanuelson came on in the 60th minute and managed to do even worse than Pieters. Especially the third goal is a typical example of why Emanuelson is no back. He made those kind of mistakes in large numbers for Ajax playing on that position. But it's all forgotten and he's suddenly a great back, just because he plays as attacking midfielder for AC Milan. Even though the times he did play as leftback showed he hasn't changed a bit? Do you comprehend the logic behind it? I fail to get it. Emanuelson's positioning and concentration is horrible for a back. Seeing the reaction followed by v. Marwijk you can understand why he's not selected as a back.

Schaars made the same kind of rookie mistake against England

The 2-2, these are positioning mistakes and these will cost you goals. These are due to the fact they are not backs but midfielders. But these mistakes are ignored and the few mistakes made by Willems are constantly mentioned in discussions why he should not play. Anita has the same limitations, he's not a leftback. But he at least has some recent CL-experience as leftback.

What I want to say is that you can't compare Emanuelson or Schaars with v. Bronckhorst. v. Bronckhorst played a lot of matches as leftback for Barcelona, he was no rookie as back and his experience helped him to play a great WC2010 and Euro2008. Lionel Messi even picked him in his team of the year ás leftback in 2008.

http://www.nusport.nl/internationaal/1991765/van-bronckhorst-beste-linksback.html

Willems, Anita, Schaars, Emanuelson, Bouma, Bouhlarouz all have their limitations, we have to live with it. The performances during the friendlies and during the trainings will decide who will play and who won't.

Jetro Willems played 20 Eredivisie matches for PSV and a lot of Europa League matches. He was bad in few of them, he was decent in a lot of them and he was great in some of them. Baised on attacking qualities, Willems >>> Pieters btw. Erik Pieters wouldn't have done much better defensively, oh wait...

PSV - Feyenoord, Willems made Schaken invisible. Willems got replaced by Pieters and Pieters did what he's great at. Walking along with the winger and let him give a cross. This costed us two goals, as always.

We have, for international level, horrible backs. That's the situation and we must use the back that works best in our team. It might be Anita, it might be Schaars, it might be Willems. But bottom-line is that they are all not good enough (yet). We must hope one of them will be able to look decent in the team.

One example:
Lucius played a magnificant match against AC Milan, while being a horrible back. In balanced team a back doesn't have to be great. Let's hope we áre a balanced team during the Euro's and let's hope one of our horrible backs will look decent.

 

using valencia is a fair assessment because thats who holland will have to play in the semis or final against spain. I mean, this isn't Holland vs Greece, or Holland vs Poland, This is Holland vs germany, Portugal and Denmark. Do you really trust Willems over schaars. I mean here are the rumours, Boularouz is in the running, Along with Schaars, Anita, And Willems. Out of those Four, With big game experience and everything you know about them. Who do you pick? Schaars is left footed, and so is willems, so they will offer something offensively, anita and boularouz is right footed. And then there is bouma! so from a comfort level, Schaars is the best, he will balance the attack, deliver great crosses, and link up well, Plus schaars has four games to prove he workout those kinks in the four friendlies

 

Schaars has rarely played as leftback and has made a rookie mistake in the only match he did play as back.

Who says Schaars has the qualities to play as back? It's a shame the level opponents during the friendlies are average, but I do believe the one who does best during the trainings and fits best in the team will play. It's not fair to write Willems off because of one horrible match against Valencia, in a time he was tired ánd when he had to mark two players because Mertens refuged to track back. I doubt even Ashley Cole would have done a decent job, it's nearly impossible to mark two people.

I do not say Willems must play, I only say we can hardly decide who has to play baised on the information we have. Schaars has never proved to be a decent back, never! It's up to him to show during friendlies and trainings he's better than Willems, Anita or Bouma. People who opt for Kuyt as back, I friendly ask them to watch Bayern Leverkussen - PSV (5-4) 1994.

 

i never asked for kuyt to be a back, there are rumors that it could be boularouz on the left back spot,
Yes schaars has played left back once for sporting, in a game that the left back got red carded, he slotted in that position and did great, but it's not enough to say he's bad or good, but he is guarenteed more solid. And will contribute, I mean can you imagine right footed boularouz playing left back, i mean man, then put kuyt on that side, holland shut down the whole left side of attack.

 

Onzie77

The point Paga is making is that he thinks people zoom in on mistakes of Jetro, while in equally doses the other backs that are candidate for the left back position in the Dutch NT have committed (the same) mistakes too.

So against examples like Valencia we can put examples of Feyenoord where Pieters got it all wrong. If you followed English commentary with the game on Wembley, you heard commentators pointing out how weak Pieters was in their opinion. Or Emanuelson who was sliced through against mighty Hungary.

With that being said, offensively Willems is better than Pieters. He is also a better footballer at the age of 18.

On a personal note, I think why this happens is because Pieters and Emanuelson have a style or way to make their mistakes less blatant. They know how to cover it, up to the point there were posters here having trust in Pieters only a few months ago. For me Finland away was when I was done with Pieters. In general Pieters just walks with his guy. There is some false sense of control that comes with that. Oh he is with the winger, so it's oke. Yes but he allows to cross them. What I have with Willems is that his defensive errors come from more aggressive intervention mind set. So when he misses, you have maybe faster a man more situation the opposing team can benefit from. I don't know if that is statistical truth (like Willems really numerical gives away more of those situations), but it's a general feeling. Maybe people prefer the false sense of security the other players offer than experiencing a stress peek from a man more situation.


However on to Schaars. You said:

Schaars is the best, he will:

• balance the attack,
• deliver great crosses, and
• link up well,

In the 45 minutes against England is there on the 3 accounts a specific moment for me to look back? Sturridge was voted on the English side as MoTM. That was the man of Schaars. That player also missed an open chance in front of goal. Your point however leans more towards the offensive component he brings to the table. What moment against England springs to mind for you, where you saw this manifested?

 

you know englands goals were offside right? and lets say they were not, who was the bad player on defense at the time of the goals? Ron Vlaar, and sturridge came on and did most of his damage in the first half against pieters. on top of that, if you watched the game sturridge highlights didn't come from going down schaars side, he attacked boularouz who was playing right back, he moved from side to side, Pieters did bad against adam johnson, almost allowing a goal, but luckily hit hit off heitingas back and went out

a quick edit or ps, I had to look for a different video on shady websites because the video someone sent saying pieters was at fault,(not available in my country) I rewatched it and noticed some slightly different things, The second goal is no fault to pieters. What happened to total football and constantly interchanging positions, It was a dangerous position, schaars got on the guy to prevent a shot, leaving the left open behind, vlaar and especially van bommel made a look and knew he had to be there, and chose not to run into that position, let ashley young run past him while van bommel was flat footed, that caused the second goal, and again vlaars bad play! And willems to me is like van wolfswinkel, which i watch him a lot cause i watch sporting play a lot, and they are awesome players, but too inconsistant, they are the future, right now, we have to worry about the now. 6 games to glory is all we have

 

Not sure the second goal was off side. Schaars looked a bit lost in that moment. I talked about the open chance Sturridge got and missed.

But my point was the offensive side you attribute to Schaars bringing to the table. This is important as that is also Willems strong side. Where in the England game do I have to go back to see those characteristics he then brings to the table? Just curious.

 

Well to be clear about the offensive side in the England friendly, Schaars didn't need to link up at the time, robben was there like a boss.
it's not just the england game, thats his first game, at left back, thrown into a bad position because in context of the flow of the game, what was happening, sturridge and adam johnson were switching sides and killing boulahrouz and pieters, and robben wasn't a help tracking back. So they put in Schaars, And if you watched the world cup, schaars employed a neat trick of playing tight to the faster guy (like v. Bronkhorst did) johnson causing him off for stuart downing. Then Sturridge and them Switched sides, and Sturridge lost effectiveness, but had great shots around the penalty spot within the midfield. So in the context of the game, he freed robben from defensive duties and allowed him more time to roam, which pieters didn't do.

So now we are talking about complete hypotheticals about whos going to play on the left side , I mean RVP or Huntelaar raises issues. If RVP plays left winger (he is left footed) offensively that is awesome, but he wont be able to play defense very well (he doesn't track back), So if it's lahm on the side or sergio ramos, we in trouble, if it's someone else, not soo much, So the left back has to shut down that side, which is why i get the rumors of boularouz playing, it can work with van persie, but if they put ultra defensive kuyt, which is possible (makes van marijk a hypocrite about playing time is important) then the left back has to contribute offensively which is why schaars is solid for the position. Willems is very aggresive, if he goes in front of kuyt, and there is a break, nigel de jong better get there, because kuyt will be left behind just like in the final against spain.

So quite simply, from what i've seen at sporting, and what i expect BVM to do, I have to say Schaars is the solid choice, irregardless of what happened in england. If not Holland will have to waste one of the three substitutions to take off a left back for someone more offensive later on. if they are trailing.

 

http://psv.netwerk.to/nieuws/artikel/27977_Kansen op EK lijken te groeien voor Willems.php

So it will be Schaars, Bouma or Willems. Let's hope it won't be Bouma

 

There are observations you make I do not agree with or do not recall. Like Robben not tracking back in that game. But to not make this a yes/no game here is the link of the whole game:

http://video.yandex.ru/users/figase0004/view/35#hq

I will watch this game in the next days again and I will make some notes with my observations. I want to see the CL final tonight. What is interesting is that I get you watch Sporting matches and that probably has given you examples to what a Schaars can bring to team.

 

haha, hell no, No bouma, donder op bouma, bouma versus ozil, ronaldo, Nani, Shit man, We gonna be in trouble man