Netherlands Brilliant Oranje - Euro Cup 2012 Thread

The only thing I disagree with is left back, I think Bouma will get the nod.

Our back four is RELATIVELY weak, as in compared to the rest of the team. They're not as crap as they're made out to be, not defensively in any case. The problem with our central defensive duo is that they don't dare to, or don't have the quality to push up. For the past what, six years or so they've shown they're uncomfortable with space behind them. Remember the Van Basten as a manager days when there used to be a huge gap between attack and defence in a 4-3-3 system. A 4-3-3 only works if your defenders are comfortable enough to keep the pitch small. By the way I understand why they feel uncomfortable with it as both Matthijsen and Heitinga aren't exactly Speedy Gonzalez. They probably worry about getting caught out on the break.

Anyway the defensive mids concept solves that problem, they're an extra defensive lock and also are the previously missing link between defence and attack. It's less glamourous than a 4-3-3 but it's definitely more solid. As in we're less likely to lose and less likely to win by a high a margin this way.

 

I did not. And I see no reason to wring such an irrelevant statement. If Maher wants a shot at the NT & he was among the last 4 to dropped then he better perform at that level or face criticism. If you want to be his nanny,sure. I am astonished to see the amount of criticism Strootman gets while the ridiculous hype Maher gets.

 

I have not disputed whoever was the best man. But Van Bommel was BAD too. Maybe everyone else was even worse which is why he was the best. Offensively he was non-existant. I cant rememeber any significant offensive contribution. And Slovakia did not have a huge amount of the ball. There were very few sporadic attacks and Mark did his bit.

But in an otherwise boring game where he had nothing offensive and where Oranje was not much tested in defense,I dont see how you argue about him being MOM.

BTW FAR big level?? If you say Strootman has had a bad 2nd half then you will acknowledge Mark had a horrible 1st half with Milan is well. And for years with Bayern,Mark was probably the weakest link in midfield. The only reason he was playing because he was the Captain & he had leadership skills. SO I dont really agree with this sentiment. Its not as if Mark was doing legendary things. He was pretty mediocre even a few years ago.

BTW Mark is not a play-maker in Milan. He is a defensive player whose main job is to break up plays.

And Mark did not have a great season. He was average.I think that is more or less universally acknowledged,reason why Milan wanted him to take a big wage cut to 2M per year to keep him in.

 

F*ck Johan Cruyff and the rest of Holland, they don't know what they are talking about. Maher is such a Hype! - Mr.S

 

He is hyped. He is in a boy's world. Lots of talented boys fail. He was completely at sea in the few minutes he played.

He is not ready. That is the bottomline. This is 2012 and he needs 2 years atleast.

 

Again if you think Van Bommel was bad last night I'm inclined to conclude that you're not exactly a connoisseur of football.

 

He was a hell of a lot better than Strootman in the Dutch league this season that's for certain.

 

Was he?? Why did he fade away for streches? Was he even AZ's best player???
I thought Elm was sometimes better.

I am not going to argue this. Everyone knew the condition of PSV,their defense and them changing coaches and stuff. None of these are positive signals. The whole defensive structure collapsed in PSV. Maher shone in a very average team. Neither at U-19 nor at the senior has he done something great.

Strootman outshone Van Bommel,Sneijder,Hunter & RVP for a MOM performance against Finland in a Euro Qualifier. He was good against Brazil. Why should he be dropped??? Because he was bad in 1 game against Germany where everyone was horrible including Sneijder & De Jong??

 

Not that I believe Maher should've been called up first of all because I think calling up players that young has the potential to ruin their career. But alongside John, Maher was the most exciting youngster in the Dutch league. AZ was the most entertaining side in the Dutch league and if jury points had decided it AZ would have won the title. Even Ajax fans would likely agree. And I'm about to get very angry at your habit of writing off teenagers. I'm old enough to remember how Van Basten performed in the under 19s. Do you want me to tell you about it? Maher has heaps of talent. As does Ola John. The nature of teenagers however is that they're rubbish one game and excellent the next. Seriously, how old are you yourself if you don't realise this?

Finland were rubbish. It's not exactly difficult to shine against a rubbish team is it. What establishes your place in the national team is a long stretch of confident performances against quality opposition. Strootman has yet to prove all of that and has never even played in an international tournament let alone the CL. Bommel right now is superior to him in every respect. If Bommel was rubbish, then yes fair enough give Strootman a chance. That's not the case though is it.

 

I wonder why Huntelaar,Van Perise,Van Bommel & Sneijder were so average against Finland though. Huntelaar & RVP had to be subbed out by the 60th minute.

And I am the last person in the world to write off young talent. I have always said that they will fall,make mistakes,learn and grow better. But we are talking about EURO 2012 here,not 2016 or 5 years later.

What I find weird about you is that on one side you are very protective about Maher since he is a young player and all,and then you criticize Strootman quite a lot but you cant bear criticism of Maher. Is Strootman not a young player?? I can argue I am doing the same,fighting for a Young talent WHOM i rate highly.

I have already said that he is over-rated simply because he is talented boys & I have seen plenty of talented boys fail. And what I have repeatedly said is Maher is not ready for Oranje,not in the next 2 years. That has been my main point of discussion.

And about Bommel and Strootman,I feel Strootman is surely better but is too raw and inexperienced. Mark brings something else which can be measured. That is intelligence,experience,maturity & leadership. And he is a master Ref Manipulator. That is why all my talks of Strootman playing has been for the position of Nigel and not Mark.

 

I'm protective about Maher because he's a teenager and you're slagging him off. He wasn't included in the squad with good reason, he's too young. That doesn't mean he's mediocre though as you imply. To use a Dutch saying, you have to be a pretty blind horse not to acknowledge that Maher is a great prospect.

You favouring Strootman over either de Jong or Bommel on the basis of one game vs the weak Fins is ridiculous. I'm not going to explain why it is ridiculous as it's so obvious to I'm sure everybody here.

 

I find it weird that you pick and choose statements to attack. I have already said and more than once that I am not even talking about prospective great players. I am talking about where they stand in 2012. If Strootman will be compared to Bommel,Maher has to be compared to Sneijder too. What he does in the future with his talent is something else. Any comparison with Maher and Strootman will lead me to question Maher's abilties at present. This is not a Future Foretelling thread.

Its not about the game against Finland. Its about my belief that 1 DM should be paired with 1 CM who can defend and initiate play,which is where Strootman fits. Strootman was good against Brazil too,if I remember. And everyone was good against San Marino.

The only real bad game he had was against Germany where the whole team did bad,but he was NOT responsible for any of the goals unlike De Jong. And you will find that I was Strootman's biggest critic for that match because he missed heaps of tackles,almost all.

What my problem is Bert making strootman a scapegoat. Bert had big trust of Kevin. Now after the 0-3 loss he is the one who has been sacrificed. We conceded 2 against England & Bulgari with De Jong & 3 against bayern were De Jong played a half. Its not like the Defense is Super Insured.

And I have no idea why you are this irritated with the prospect of Kevin playing when you claim to be the saviour of all youth talents.

 

Which current Dutch international debuted at the age of 18 and impressed? The last 10 years? Be serious. It's his first stand out season in the Eredivisie. Anyhow...

 

I think VDV & Robben were very young too. And Van Der Vaart was a super talent. I dont know if he was 18,but I was saw Talent Talent Talent all over him. Man he was a great talent.

But you are right. Strootman did make a great impression against Brazil though and after 1 Big season. But he was 20-21 atleast I guess,not 18. Anways you are right. He can be a very good player one day,but he is not ready. Lots of talented guys dont make it.

Atleast Strootman has done something for the NT which is why he should get the nod right now atleast.

 

Bert is not making Strootman a scapegoat, how on earth did you come to that conclusion. Both Bommel and De Jong are a hundred times more experienced and proven on the highest level.

 

De Jong lost his place to Strootman fair and square. And now suddenly Strootman does not get a minute and Nigel is an automatic starter despite having average games. Kevin is the guy who was starting match after match.

Its no coincidence that he has barely had any game time since the Germany match

 

I just thank the football gods that we have a bondscoach who doesn't make his decisions on the basis of a qualifier vs a rubbish opponent like Finland.

 

yes they have to play around the half way line., i was saying, that we could play 4-3-3 without them, but van marijk never gives the super talented youngsters a chance, i mean just on the top of my head, he played bruma against sweden, and he's played vlaar, bouma, and maduro might count if you count that ukraine game after the world cup. NO experiments whatsoever, because he has no desire whatsoever to play 4-3-3 i mean literally, we have plenty of wingers, and only now before the world cup he calls on narsingh and ola john.

i think it's more to do with heitinga and mathijsen are not good passers to make the 4-3-3 work, i don't think it has anything to do with defense. They simply are really bad, weak passers with no ball skills. When you see mathijsen there is a super smart dude, who usually always makes his tackles, but beyond that, i can only think of once when playing for hamburg where he made a run from the center to attack and contribute the pass. We don't have Jaap stam's and de boer anymore. but at the same time. we can play positive football.

I mean strootman what happened to him, he displaced nigel de jong, the game versus germany and now he's not there, i saw him at psv a few times, it wasn't like he stunk up the place. BVM is hard to predict. Because he says things about playing for your club regularly and all that jazz, and then van bommel didn't play much for ac milan, nigel de jong lost his place at manchester city, van der vaart didn't play as much as I would have liked. dirk kuyt didn't get playing time. it's like where is the consistancy. it's like a bad referee. Can't call it one way for one team, and another way for the other team. it's simple. follow what you say, and he hasn't done that.

and with the current squad it's not possible to play 4-3-3 maybe 4-1-4-1 that on defense is 4-2-3-1 if we are lucky, but the whole deal with we don't have defenders is crap, we have plenty of those. and although young have performed great, just look at what az alkmaar did in europa league.