NASL misc

Discussion in 'NASL' started by ceezmad, Oct 18, 2012.

  1. CCSUltra

    CCSUltra Member+

    Nov 18, 2008
    Cleveland
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And dumb if they actually try to challenge MLS.
     
  2. brentgoulet

    brentgoulet Member+

    Oct 12, 2005
    PuertoPlata, DomRep
    We need a MTV Celebrity death match; Tim Holt vs Bill Peterson
     
    drSoFlaFan repped this.
  3. modernfootball

    Apr 15, 2011
    New York City
    Club:
    --other--
    But that is the point of the Open Cup.
     
    Antique repped this.
  4. CCSUltra

    CCSUltra Member+

    Nov 18, 2008
    Cleveland
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good to see you completely missed the point of what I posted
     
  5. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, it isn't.

    They got honked off because "their guy" (Jeff Cooper, how did THAT work out) didn't get to buy USL. And they didn't think the league was being run well and that they could do it better. What's funny is a lot of those owners are not even around in D2 anymore.

    Many NASL clubs may have greater ambitions, but they are ambitions of JOINING MLS, not elevating their league to compete with MLS. Because that would necessitate a level of investment that they simply do not have. And MLS has quite the head start on them and almost all the markets that are meaningful.
     
  6. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is why people think you are a dope.

    So, the Open Cup was not relevant prior to 2012, which was the first year the NASL actually participated in it?

    And being better (or getting the breaks at home) than a barely-interested MLS team on some random Tuesday in June says absolutely ********-all about "challenging" MLS.

    We saw it last year and we'll see it this year: morons tweeting that this result proves D2 is just as good or that you could start your own competing league or some such bullshit.

    It's a single-elimination tournament. Things happen. It's not indicative of some larger truth, unless you look at that truth over time, which is that barely-interested MLS teams still win 70% of the time they play lower-division teams and always win the tournament.

    Please get the hell over this obsession some of you have with the supposed deeper meaning of the US Open Cup and the grand ambition of owners who simply are not on the level of MLS investors when it comes to wealth.
     
  7. WhiteStar Warriors

    Mar 25, 2007
    St.Pete/Krakow
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This truly is starting to get troubling, either their are a lot of uninformed fans out their or USL's brainwashing with the motto " USL is the most sophisticated, operated league under MLS" is really working for the uninformed:

    16:50

    http://www.soccersam.com/media/audio/20130316.mp3
     
  8. CHHSfan

    CHHSfan Member

    Oct 30, 2010
    Chapel Hill
    Club:
    Carolina Railhawks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    Does it matter? Really? To who?
     
  9. CShine

    CShine Member

    Dec 13, 2009
    Huntsville, AL
    Club:
    Rocket City United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is there some evidence that this is the real goal of NASL or is it merely your personal opinion of what they should all want? It would seem from their public statements that a minority of NASL clubs have MLS ambitions but for most of them we just don't know.
     
  10. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I said "many." You said "all."

    Those currently in NASL who have Division I ambitions (however many there are - whether they have been publicly expressed or privately held) had better be ambitions of joining MLS and not competing with them. Because - as I've said - the prospects of actually starting a competing Division I league are not good. MLS has a big head start and tons more resources.
     
  11. CShine

    CShine Member

    Dec 13, 2009
    Huntsville, AL
    Club:
    Rocket City United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Put a team somewhere on the north side of Chicago and see if you can draw a crowd of 5-8K. I'm not sure the existence of the Fire would prevent anyone from doing that. One has to wonder what's so invincible about drawing a 14k crowd in a town of three million. Does that mean you've got the whole town locked down? A head start and extra resources haven't been translated into all that many fans.

    It's really not a question of a "competing Division I league." The question is how much opportunity remains in all these enormous markets which are under-served or not served at all. If MLS isn't gonna go there then someone else will.
     
  12. WhiteStar Warriors

    Mar 25, 2007
    St.Pete/Krakow
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    bring back chicago sting and LA aztecs.
     
  13. Bluesfan

    Bluesfan Member+

    DC United
    Aug 12, 2000
    Tampa
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Scotland
    Certainly, if done 'right' (whatever that means) a NASL club could survive in an existing MLS market such as Chicago or Dallas. The problem would be where would they play? The MLS clubs have a challenge drawing 15K on a regular basis in brand new purpose built stadiums in those cities. If someone built a 7 or 8 thousand seat stadium in a decent location and promoted the hell out of the club properly then maybe you have something.

    The problem is that is a lot of 'ifs'. Don't hold your breath.
     
  14. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Go ahead and try. You have absolutely no idea how large the gulf is between what these people have for resources and what MLS has for resources. Not "all that many fans." Holy shit, you have no idea what you're talking about.

    For the kabillionth time: population is a great indicator of traffic. It is not an indicator of how many people will go to soccer games. Do you really think the other 2.86 million ********ing people in Chicago are saying, "No, no, I love soccer, I just wish someone would come along and put a Division II team somewhere on the north side in a stadium that doesn't exist, with players I've never heard of and who have zero chance of playing for a national team better than that of Guyana because that's what I've been waiting for?"

    Jesucristo...how many DII teams have drawn 5-8k for a season? Do you know what's preventing that? It's not the Fire, no (but we're talking about a league level here, not individual level - the ********ing Fire couldn't sell Manti Te'O a time machine) - it's the fact that DII teams don't have the resources to do that. That's why they're in DII.

    (Actually, I'll answer the question for you, genius - 50 team-seasons out of 276, or 18%, have averaged more than 5k. A total of nine franchises have ever done it in DII. Three of them are no longer with us, four are in MLS, one is in DII and one is in DIII. That's it. That's the list.)

    Knock thyselves out. I was specifically referring to the meme - expressed by some, if not by you - that the NASL was not content to be a "minor" league (once we come to an agreement on what that means) and should/would/wants to be a competing Division I league.

    If they want to go into places like Austin and places where MLS is unlikely to go, that's probably not only smart but necessary. That's why there is a DII in the first place. And if they think the LA market is underserved and want to go to Fullerton or Riverside or whatever, knock yourself out.
     
  15. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do people understand that for all the romanticizing about the Sting, the Sting lost a kabillion dollars over time and were never popular enough to even be a fair-to-middling draw in the original NASL days, and that nobody gave two shits about the Los Angeles Aztecs when they did exist and HAD GEORGE BEST?
     
  16. CShine

    CShine Member

    Dec 13, 2009
    Huntsville, AL
    Club:
    Rocket City United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We're talking about expansion teams that don't yet exist. You're here to tell us you know all about the resources at the disposal of these theoretical ownership groups which haven't stepped forward yet. Quite a few existing division 2 teams may be cash poor but that has nothing to do with those who've yet to set up shop.

    We have one D2 club that's drawing in the attendance range I mentioned and at least a couple of others that might be nearing that range if they keep their act together, and then there's the previous examples you mentioned. I find it rather odd that you take it as evidence that it can't be done. Why is that? It's clear that new stadium plans envision 5-8K attendance as an attainable goal. Are they all stupid and you're smarter?

    Spare us the bluster. It doesn't add to the discussion.
     
  17. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    and CShine

    Racial politics.

    The FIRE has lost a lot of their support from Easter Europeans (mostly the Polish population) so maybe a NASL team with Eastern European/Polish flavor would help out.

    But as Bluesfan says, where to put the stadium and how to pay for it would be too much of a problem.

    If AIG could not get a stadium built with-in city limits I doubt someone else could build one for a D2 team.

    It would have to be totally privately funded the city is broke and are not going to help with a stadium (shit they won’t even help the Cubs).

    I see no place in the north side inside the city (with in public transportation aka subway) that would be available for a reasonable price.

    If they build it in the North/North East suburbs then they would have the same problem as the FIRE out there in Bridgeview, and it would be much worse for a D2 team.

    So unless some well connected Chicago Politician/rich person finds a love for soccer (and willingness to lose money) and can get a CIP to build-up a blighted area then this isn’t going to happen in Chicago.
     
  18. Scorpions Unofficial Army

    Mar 14, 2013
    San Antonio
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wait til you see our lineup and team for the 2013 season, we're going after the Eastern European market for sure :-(, and you'd think that in San Antonio, there'd be another population to pull from other than Eastern European :0)
     
  19. OnlyOneTInFootball

    Mar 15, 2011
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    It's not evidence it can't be done. It's evidence it's very, very, very hard to do. As is building a new stadium. And you're considering a market which has a major league team to contend with, and a whole ton of other sporting options to contend with.
     
  20. The Irish Rover

    The Irish Rover Member+

    Aug 1, 2010
    Dublin
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    EPL and BL1 teams occasionally get knocked out in their Cup competitions by teams in the 2nd, 3rd and even 4th divisions (Bradford City anyone?), but nobody expects the Cup Final to be won by anything other than the EPL or BL1 team. Even if, by some miracle, the lower-division team did win the trophy, nobody seriously thought it meant that the entire division was on a par with the EPL or BL1. They never even thought that the winning team was EPL or BL1 standard, merely that the particular team should be playing at a higher level, and that was pre-Bosman. Nowadays they think it means that individual players should be playing at a higher level.

    That's how people thought, and continue to think, about the meaning of Cup games in countries where the Cup actually means something, based on a century or more of tradition. In Spain or Italy, where because the Cup ties are played over two legs there are almost never upsets, nobody even gives a damn if there is an upset. the Cup is an afterthought, an opportunity for the Division 1 team to give its squad players a competitive game and for the lower-division team to put its best players in the shop window. If Real Madrid go out of the Copa del Rey to a Segunda B team, it's evidence that the scrubs are not up to snuff or just a bad day at the office. A larger significance is only for fanboys.

    The USA is a different country (no shit Sherlock: ed) which is still making its football traditions. It's certainly possible that if, say, the Scorpions start becoming regular giant-killers, people will start thinking that the NASL is on the same level as MLS. Possible, but not likely. What is likely is that soccer fans will think that the Scorpions are MLS-standard, in which case the question of their joining MLS will arise. This general perception will, marginally, improve the Scorpions bargaining position in the joining process - if they want to move up - nothing more.

    This argument is silly.
     
  21. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    While I agree that is silly.

    Theoretically speaking in our system (USA/Canada) we could (have had in the past) competing equal leagues that do not face each other, with the Open cup this could be the only way to see what league is better.


    So it is not exactly the same as in “Europe” since the way they set up what level is best is by Pro/Rel.



    Now NASL winning a few games and people claiming it is “catching up” to MLS is silly for sure, a bit like fans of MLS claiming the “gap is closing” when MLS teams win some CCL games vs. Liga MX teams.


    And yes even if NASL wins 1 out of 10 Open Cups that would still not mean they are equal to MLS, just like if RSL would have won the CCL 2 years ago would still not mean MLS is equal to Liga MX.
     
  22. the shelts

    the shelts Member+

    Jun 30, 2005
    Providence RI
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    If the NASL ............thats IF the NASL wanted to be on equal par or a better league than MLS they would be very well informed to do a quick glance at the USFL, WHA and ABA. I don't believe that is the goal. I'm thinking it was a group of D2 owners who didn't like the way the USL was run out of Tampa. They went their own way.

    WSW, yes the podcasts speak to a few guys who are pro USL. I really wouldn't put much into those, they have a small footprint of listeners and are personal opinions. Frankly the small footprint of listeners don't want to hear a bunch of buzz words, media speak and "we are going to give 100% effort out there" types of quotes.

    This whole thing will get settled one of two ways.
    1/ USSF and/or MLS organizes some sort of meeting where people can get on the same page.
    2/ Money.

    I personally think Money will figure this out. Either the USL Pro will lose a couple of clubs and some remaining survivors migrate to NASL, the NASL will fold with too many random outposts, the NASL will thrive with a paying market place.

    Money will decide this. What ever product attracts the most money will win. Sadly, they both might end up killing the other in the process.
     
  23. Jossed

    Jossed Member+

    Apr 23, 2011
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Slightly different situation since you are talking about two D1 leagues with MLS and Liga MX. No one expects a D2 league to compete or put comparable talent on the field to a D1 league. Except fools. But MLS fans do expect their league to at least be competitve with Liga MX, at this point, even if the league is years away from being at the same level. Just different standards.
     
  24. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It was a comment on the fan boys that use any little result to over-hype their league, people need to recognize the levels and the differences between the leagues.
     
  25. Scorpions Unofficial Army

    Mar 14, 2013
    San Antonio
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And all Americans need to recognize the differences in levels and leagues between Europe and the USA
     

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