MLS vs. UEFA Coefficients

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by soccersubjectively, Nov 26, 2012.

  1. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    RSL was fairly dominant that year. They won their group, beating Cruz Azul 3-1 at home and losing 5-4 on the road in the group stages. That scoreline was somewhat controversial as well, as Cruz Azul scored the game winning goal more than a minute after the announced stoppage time had elapsed. RSL had scored to tie the game 4-4 a minute earlier.

    They had little difficulty advancing to the finals (though some people think the draw was rigged as all 4 FML sides were drawn into the same side of the bracket. Statisticians later proved that all 4 teams from Mexico being drawn into the same side of the bracket was a statistical probability based on how they finished in their respective groups.)

    In the final, RSL drew 2-2 in Monterey on a very late goal by Javi Morales. Only needing a 0-0 or 1-1 draw to win, RSL had the better of possession and out-shot Monterey 20-9, including squandering an open goal, giving up a first half stoppage time goal against the run of play. The eventually lost the game 1-0 and Monterey won the title.
     
  2. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    I think you mis-read what people were actually saying. Or you are intentionally twisting it to serve your argument.
     
  3. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well if it was actually said, it should be easy to link to it.

    (I know I sure as hell never said it, but I can't remember the last time I said anything good about Salt Lake...)
     
  4. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    I remember the question being asked. But outside of hardcore RSL fans, I can't remember a single person saying that RSL team was the best team in the history of MLS.
     
  5. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually in 2011-2012 MLS did worst against Liga MX teams than in 2010-2011.


    Now MLS started very shitty in the CCL, I think that in the past 2.5 years MLS has reached the level were we belong, ahead of Honduras and Costa Rica but below Mexico.

    Statistically speaking, MLS has probably plateau in relative terms to Liga MX, maybe after 2014 if new TV money comes in, then MLS can take another step.

    Since you never link to any stats to back up your comments here I will link to some pages were some people have actually calculated results in the CCL.

    MLS vs Liga MX Head to head
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/fmf-vs-mls-2010-part-3.1667026/page-13

    CCL coefficient
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/concacaf-champions-league-coefficient.1187575/page-17


    And just for fun the Libertadores, where Mexico has gone from 3rd to 6th (partly because of the rule that the 4 semifinalist must play in the CCL).

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/¿deriamos-de-tener-coeficiente-en-la-libertadores.526674/page-3

    That makes you wonder, if Mexico is now below Uruguay, Paraguay and Chile, just imagine how low MLS would rank if they had 3 teams in the Libertadores, possibly between Peru and Venezuela. (Assuming Concacaf would limit MLS to the same rules as Liga MX).
     
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  6. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Member+

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    Mexico's record at the Club World Cup also doesn't shine a positive light on the rest of Concacaf. Here's a league that has won its confederation seven times in a row and has hardly managed to raise eyebrows when faced with Asian or African opposition, let alone others.

    Let's see if that changes this year.
     
  7. MexiKampeon

    MexiKampeon Member+

    Sep 10, 2012
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    I have no expectations... Year in Year Out the Club World Cup has demonstrated that a preseason Mexican team cannot establish differences relative to mid season Asian & African teams.
     
  8. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    lol, nice our MLS excuse for losing in the second part of the CCL, well played sir, well played.
     
  9. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Plus, they're always an "away" team.
     
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  10. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    I don't quote stats because they don't tell the whole picture. I actually watch the games and pay attention to who is playing.

    Mexican teams used to run out reserve and youth teams against MLS teams and still get wins. As teams like Columbus and RSL started going down to Mexico and getting draws and win, and getting wins at home on a relative consistent basis, Mexican teams started playing more first teamers against MLS competition.

    So relatively, the results might have declined this year, but that is also relative to the overall strength of the sides that the Mexican teams are running out there.

    Stats don't really paint the picture of the flow of the game either. MLS teams are attacking more and creating more chances. They are playing the Mexican teams more evenly than they have in the past.

    So yeah, you aren't going to see me post stats pretty much ever about anything, because stats only ever paint part of the picture and for the most part are a completely worthless metric when taken as the solitary source of comparative information.
     
  11. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ok your opinion >>> Stats, facts and records, got it.
     
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  12. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    That's not at all what I said.

    You want to talk facts, and that's fine. But you can't quote one set of facts and then ignore another one to make your point. Fact is, Mexican teams have been fielding stronger sides as MLS teams have started to get better results.

    Think of it this way. I keep giving you the same Algebra test over and over and over again. As your algebra knowledge improves, so do your scores. Eventually I give you a more challenging test and your score drops.

    Statistically, you did worse on the last test than you did on the previous test. So by your logic, it means you got dumber at algebra. The statistics don't take into account that I gave you a more challenging test because your skills had improved.

    Like I said initially...stats, taken as the single solitary piece of comparative information is a worthless and inaccurate way of measuring progress.
     
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  13. MexiKampeon

    MexiKampeon Member+

    Sep 10, 2012
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico

    So basically you acknowledge my point that we can't know the real distance between MLS & Liga MX teams because the Mex teams are still regulating their effort / lineups... while dominating the knock out stages & silver ware.

    I think it is useless & inconclusive to try to triangulate among various tournaments using common denominators... for the sake of argument let us take another angle... COPA MX... the Mexican 2nd Division teams actually looked better & more competitive against Liga MX teams than the MLS teams have against Liga MX with two 2nd Division teams playing in the final... by this logic MLS is less than the Mexican 2nd Division... which gets to my main argument about how ridiculous it is to have threads about where MLS compares to 4th Tier UEFA leagues etc., Bottom line, MLS teams need to become competitive against Liga MX teams & participate in CONMEBOL tournaments outside of that it is just insecure fans trying to gain legitimacy through hearsay & fantasies.
     
  14. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    Wrong. The Liga MX teams wouldn't need to be fielding stronger sides and regulating their effort if the gap hadn't initially been closed by MLS teams when facing weakened sides.

    The very fact that Liga MX felt a need to put out stronger lineups implies that they recognized that MLS sides were getting stronger, hence closing the gap.

    And regardless of what metric you want to use, just use your own two eyes.

    MLS teams are playing Liga MX teams more competitively today than they were just a couple of years ago.

    Like I said, Liga MX is definitely better. All I'm saying is that the gap is closing.
     
  15. MexiKampeon

    MexiKampeon Member+

    Sep 10, 2012
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico

    I never denied that the MLS sides have gotten more competitive... simply that the improvement still isn't enough for the Liga MX teams to take them truly serious... I expect that in an all out, meaninful home & away with starters on both sides the typical result would be a narrow Liga MX win away, and a goleada at home... with an average home and away Goal Differential of +5 for the Liga MX teams.
     
  16. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    Seeing how that's all I've ever said, why start a debate with me in the first place unless you were just trolling?
     
  17. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Obviously, the gap between the Liga MX starters and MLS starters has narrowed.

    The MLS real roster expenditures have pretty much doubled over the last half a decade since the Beckham Rule was introduced.
     
  18. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    And I'm not quite sure why my saying so is so controversial to some.
     
  19. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Like in many arguments you say some wrong shit, and then act like you do not remember what you said.

    That is what I pointed out was wrong, that is all, I went by records you went by "what you see on the field"

    Hey I say Mt. Everest is the tallest mountain, you say is Magic mountain, we will just have to agree to disagree. (Stephen Colbert).
     
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  20. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA


    Got it. So you're arguing semantics rather than the greater point, which is that the gap is closing. Which basically means that you agree with me, but are being a douche.
     
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  21. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    No higher than 20th if you ask me. In 10 years id say ranked 12th
     
  22. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    All I am saying is it goes in cycles and not year by year, plus is not linear, sometimes MLS will catch up a little, sometimes Liga MX will jump ahead, kind of like 2 steps forward one step back.

    To be top 12, MLS would probably need to be better than Liga MX or at least better than Chile (in coefficients Chile is now ahead of Mexico in Libertadores).



    Realistically speaking where would people rank the Brazileirato and the Argentinean league in relation to European leagues?

    Big 4

    Then France and Portugal are very close to each other, would Brazil rank right below them?
    How about Argentina? Brazil has opened a big gap in relation to Argentina, Chile and Mexico in copa Libertadores, so Argentina would rank where I wonder, maybe between Russia and Belgium?

    Then Argentina has a nice size gap between their league and Chile and Mexico, so that means Chile and Mexico would probably rank below Turkey?

    Realistically speaking and I know many fans of the Liga MX will not agree, I would probably rank Mexico somewhere between 13th and 16th in the world.

    So MLS would definitely be outside the top 20 (just based on coefficients).
     
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  23. El Naranja

    El Naranja Member+

    Sep 5, 2006
    Alief
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    2007
    DC 1 (1) - Chivas 1 (2)
    Houston 2 (2) - Pachuca 0 (5) AET

    2008
    Pachuca 2 (1) - DCU 0 (2)

    DCU 0 (0) - CruzAzul 1 (2)
    Houston 1 (4) - UNAM 3 (4)
    Houston 1 (0) - Atlante 1 (3)

    2009
    Houston 0 (0) - Pachuca 1 (2)
    DCU 1 (1) - Toluca 3 (1)
    Crew 0 (0) - CruzAzul 2 (5)

    2010
    RSL 3 (4) - CruzAzul 1 (5)
    TFC 2 (0) - CruzAzul 1 (0)
    Crew 1 (0) - Santos 0 (1)
    Seattle 0 (2) - Monterrey 2 (3)

    2011
    RSL 2 (0) - Monterrey 2 (1)

    LAG 2 (1) - Morellia 1 (2)
    Rapids 1 (0) - Santos 4 (2)
    TFC 1 (0) - UNAM 1 (4)
    FCD 0 (0) - UNAM 2 (1)
    Seattle 1 (0) - Monterrey 2 (1)

    2012
    Seattle 2 (1) - Santos 1 (6)
    TFC 1 (2) - Santos 1 (6)

    TFC 1 (0) - Santos 3 (1)

    I'd say that outside of a few examples, most MLS teams haven't been blown away at all given results. RSL, DC and Houston have all been very competitive.
     
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  24. soccersubjectively

    soccersubjectively BigSoccer Supporter

    Jan 17, 2012
    Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I remember Gomez speaking really highly of Seattle after the 2012 blowout. He was very adamant about that.
     

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