MLS Single entity (and all other league structure talk) Part II

Correct of course, but hasn't the league been doing this the last few years? Another DP was added, then retention funds, we aren't losing solid soldiers to Scandinavia and D2 leagues anymore. MLS has started to attract young, in their prime South American players. The HomeGrown player initiative was started, along with D3 affiliates being added now, and that stuff is all in it's infancy quite honestly.

Sure we want it to be even better, but they are taking tangible steps, and continue to.

Some big names to capture attention is just part of the equation.

 

And to the bigger point, I'm not denying that "more" is needed. However, the quote from Illini about the growth strategy being only 3 players and a bunch of dudes .... that's what I'm talking about. He started to shoehorn two points into one.

The growth strategy is clearly more than that, and even if the next CBA doesn't explode upward in terms of the cap/salary spending ... the growth is strategy is still clearly more than that. Teams are building 21m academy facilities. We've established the partnership with USL-Pro for development. The DP rule has expanded and specifically to target younger/better players with more to offer the league. The actual signing of talent has shifted greatly the last 2/3 years. Our "splash" purchases have changed dramatically in that time frame as well. There is literally only 1 "huge" name from the USMNT that is not playing in the league this year (Howard).

Where is the support for the claim on who the league is signing ? Even the "name" players have shifted (Defoe and Martins are much different signings than even Beckham and Henry were). Valeri, Laba ....

Money is being spent in several areas within the league and it all is part of the growth strategy. To minimize it all to "if the CBA doesn't significantly increase the cap/spending on salary" is pretty poor.

 

That all sounds good and all ... and I agree to most of it. But when you look at the dollar amounts involved with Dempsey and Bradley it's hard not to second guess. I mean the dollar amounts there are more than the rest of all non DP MLS players combined. It's hard 2 justify more than half your league wide player budget going on the top half dozen or so players in the league.

 

I'd be worried about it if the league wasn't in a position where it has to toss money at Bradley or Dempsey to get them back here. That's a reality of this league still. It's quickly evaporating but it's still the truth of the matter.

But, are those moves NOT moves that better the league ? raise the quality of player ? open the door to the types of players needed ? raise the profile of the league ?

The growth has been exponential and on many fronts ... the snowball has formed and now it's rolling.

 

It's just going to be hard to sit there at the CBA and say "well the league is losing money ... we have no money for players" when they just spent tens of millions of dollars on 2 players and some other guys on that same field are making under $100,000.

I mean if we're so flush with money I'd rather see all 11 starters on the field be $250,000 quality or above. That would go a lot farther in making the games higher quality IMO

 

I guess I didn't make myself clear. I love the way the league is investing in youth development. For the foreseeable future that is mission #1 for all soccer entities in this country.

And I believe in the slow and steady growth model and want to keep it that way. I don't want reckless salary inflation. And I also perfectly well recognize that the commissioner can't be running around saying "we need to pay our players more money!" in the midst of a CBA negotiation. That would be malpractice.

But at the same time, there are three things that bug me:

1. It's an iron law that the product on the field can only go up when better players are bought. Even if the development system starts producing great players and we try to pay them like current MLS youngsters, they will be on the first plane to Europe. If this is going to be a league that plays world class soccer, somewhere on the path from here to there MUST lie a much higher salary cap.

2. I'm being told we're going to be a league that plays world class soccer in 8 years, when clearly the current business plan and that goal do not line up.

3. I think the fact that so much of the league makes under 50k is a drag on the perception of the sport. Not only is no one going to leave college for that, no one is going to dream about that either. It makes the league look like a fly-by-night operation.

 

Except people are leaving college for that and are dreaming about it. Maybe you haven't seen the unemployment issues for the newly-graduated but $50K looks pretty good right now (hell, in inflation-adjusted dollars that's about what I made when I graduated and unlike soccer players I worked 40 hours a week and had to pay for health care).

 

50k as an entry level worker in a long term career once you've graduated is fantastic. 50k to forego a college degree in order to do something with high risk and a short shelf life is a much different proposition.

But even that's not the point. A good living is one thing, an aspirational life-changing fortune is another, and that's what drives people toward pro sports. That's how you fill your youth academies. Now, MLS isn't going to be able to mint hundreds of new millionaires like the NBA does for a long long time. But being able to make more than a manager at McDonalds seems pretty easy to me. How much would the cap have to go up to install a minimum salary of $75k and keep all the same players? Probably less than half a million per team, right? Money well spent from a mere PR perspective, IMO.

 

A quick count of the salary lists shows about 175 players making under $50K. Giving them each an average of another $35K/year means 6.1 million per year league wide, so about $325K per team per year.

 

It is, as I said, part of the equation.

Folks said the same thing about prior CBA's, and how would the league justify those big DP's who got paid more than anyone...yada, yada, yada. We are spending more money on everything as has been pointed out several times.
It's funny, every CBA has had the EXACT same arguments...every one. The bar has been raised every time.
Same complaints, but folks just complaining for more each time. It's getting there. Progress has been there every time, but that's the way of fandom.

Don't appreciate what was accomplished or what is being accomplished and what it took...outside of a quick nod. Just act as if that's the way it should have always been and why aren't you at the next step already?

 

Read my last post. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Believe it or not it's a work in progress and moving pretty damn good, and fast, if you have been around long enough to know better. It used to be a lot worse...it is continually improving...it's just not gonna happen as fast as you want.

Instead of being frustrated enjoy the process. In 30 years when you are 50 or so think back to now.
I bet you will be very surprised.

30 years ago I had nothing...except folks mocking soccer and those who played it.

 

I must object somewhat as I have said again and again that I believe in slow and steady and that the really quite miraculous progress the league has made is a product of that prudence.

And as an aside, MLS owners are entirely unlike their big 4 counterparts in that they have taken some heavy losses over the years, and you can't blame them for seeking some long-sought return on that investment.

All I'm saying is that we as fans have to hold the leadership of the league accountable, especially those of us discerning enough to want to see a rising caliber of play league-wide far more than seeing Didier Drogba and Kaka enjoy a couple of relaxing pre-retirement years in brand new publicly-funded palaces.

 

I got what you are saying...all I am saying is that it is simply part of the process.

The retirement signings you speak of have become less and less prevalent. If these guys sign and fail I guarantee owners will hear about it now....unlike the past. There is a difference between signing a Lothar Matteus, and a guy like Drogba or Kaka who are still playing at pretty damn high levels. Then again, we have heard a lot about guys like this wanting to sign and MLS really hasn't signed them! Guys like this aren't getting long term contracts.
Again, you sign a guy like that and if they can't produce anymore the fan base and media call the GM's out now.
There is a reason we are seeing more guys in their prime from places like SA then ever before.
Believe it or not...overseas players know this isn't some cake walk anymore. You are gonna have to play hard. Players all talk.
Go to the mideast if you want an easy payday.

I get your point. My point is simply that this really isn't happening right now as much as we hear about it possibly happening....and certainly not in numbers. Simple case of perception being behind reality....very common.

Honest question....how long have you followed MLS? Will allow me to respond with more perspective. I've followed, and been involved with the game here in some form since the early 70's.

 

I wasn't even a twinkle in my mother's eye in the early 70's, so I can only imagine watching the sport go from basically cricket or team handball or something into what it is today in the US.

 

That's why I ask.

It's great to see people who have only known MLS for the last few years and push for more. We all want more.

However, that old saying of knowing where you come from is important also.

From where I sit MLS has made huge strides in the last couple of years with regards to image, money spent, players kept, players they are attracting and now we even are setting up club affiliates to help kids get time.


Just a few short years ago there where many praying for and salivating for these basic changes. MLS was gonna be a retirement league and joke until simple things like this could be done. Well, they are now doing them.

I would be much more critical if I didn't see progress, and since 2002 the progress has been phenomenal for a start up league in a country that simply dismissed, mocked and generally despised the sport only a decade or so ago.

Always push the envelope, but know where you stand now.

I have seen a lot of the retirement type signings go away. Again, we hear a lot of players say they want to end their career here....I haven't seen many be allowed to do it recently. MLS seems to balking at these players now unless it's a real high profile case. Also, just don't turn on some older players. Quite a few are still playing at high levels, and would be in other decent leagues if they didn't come here. I think MLS has really upgraded in this regard. These players you see signed in their prime now from SA and even Europe as solid additions would never have come here even 5 years ago. Improvement...even young prospects have shown that MLS is a real option.

We are getting there and it is actually moving fairly quickly right now. A decade in a venture like this is nothing.
The last decade has been breathe taking for the game here.

Drive but enjoy the ride. We are able to watch the actual building of a league here. It's pretty cool.



Cool ='s dating myself.

 

These are exactly the reasons I roll my eyes at the Dempsey/Bradley money. It feels really like stifling the momentum of the increase of quality of play. I mean if we have that much money we could spend it on like 40 Diego Valeris

I get the argument that these are the moves today that build buzz that will eventually raise the floor so we can sign those 40 Diego Valeris in the future. Fair enough. I just think from the POV of a more knowledgeable soccer fan it's pretty clear that the quality of a soccer game would be a lot higher if every starter was valued at $250,000-$500,00 salary instead of 2 guys making $5,000,000 and some making under $100,000.

 

I've been tracking that myself. The last year or two have seen a definite upswing in quality. A number of guys who could easily be playing in Championship or Ligue 1 instead chose MLS.

 

It's explicitly about gaining TV audience. Both Liga MX and the Premier League have no problem getting double or triple the audience that MLS receives. Diego Valeri will not make those viewers take notice of MLS. The only thing that these audiences are sure to watch together are World Cup games. MLS is banking on making a statement this year by making sure that the majority of USMNT players will be from MLS. If the USMNT plays well it should be a major statement of the quality of the league.

 

I get the strategy. Hope it works. I think there's value in having as many USMNT in the league as possible. I'm not sure I would of overpaid to that extent to get those 2 specific players. I'd be more comfortable in keeping as many nationals in the league as possible within the parameters of the MLS market. What those signings did was create an unnatural distortion that is not consistent to what we all like which is steady slow growth. If this Dempsey/Bradley money was distributed a little more evenly you'd be looking at an extra million at least per team in the cap budget. I think you're underestimating the fanbase if you don't think they'll respond to something like that. The day for multi million blockbuster signings may still happen in the future anyways ... I'm not sure why the sudden impatience ... except this perpetual inferiority complex that I think some people have. It's this idea that we can't take ourselves seriously unless we have "name recognition". In the process of overcompensating for that there is a risk of making the league seem more like a traveling circus where we sell names instead of soccer.

 

This thing, called the world cup .... where Dempsey and Bradley will be rather large ... ya know ?

 

How exactly are the NHL, NBA and MLB closed systems for players? Either you haven't watched any of those leagues and those sports around the world in the last 20 years or .......... actually there is no or.

And if the NBA doubled the players cut of the revenues very soon after 10 to 12 teams would fold and a dozen others would be paying less than 40% of the new cap so as to be cannon fodder for the remaining 8 teams. Think La Liga Scottish Prem, EPL or Ligue 1 lack of competitiveness except not as bad.

 

And if the league had it's way in DC, Boston, and Vancouver that stadium debt would have been alot higher and $75m-$100m loss becomes $125m plus.

Frankly, I want the league to be in the -$200m investment range until we get to 28 clubs. I don't care if people think it's CBA talk - with the likes of NYCFC, Orlando and Miami coming on board (and the $120m upgrade to BMO Field) the stadium debt and academy construction the investment needed to build MLS will grow.

 

I didn't mention it before the last thread was closed, but I really think Nelson Rodriguez' resignation last month is an important development. It didn't get a lot of attention here, but he was a very respected guy at MLS, the point person for the "2022 plan", and I think he'll be missed.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/...driguez-resigns-from-Major-League-Soccer.html

Rodriguez had a pretty clear idea of how to upgrade the league, and while I don't think MLS would have achieved world class status by 2022, I think he was on the right track. Again, here's what he said in a Grantland interview:

“In March of 2011, we started to gather a working group together. And I said, ‘OK, 2022 we need to be one of the world’s greatest soccer leagues. What are the characteristics of being the world’s greatest soccer leagues?’ One of the things that we landed on was players have a worldwide technical standard. We also had another one, which was an abundance of good [number] nines and 10s. Then we started to work backward from there. What are the things that we need to do and institute, so that if it all comes together according to the master plan we’ll get there in 2022?

“At the same time as the designated player phase, though, we finally started the foundational work that is so crucial — which is all of the academy staff, all of the youth development. Trying to create those integrated vertical pyramids at every local level. Everyone can talk to me about ‘tactically we are not this, we are not that’ — when you can make the ball do whatever you want it to do, whenever you want it to do, tactics either become really easy or really irrelevant. I think we need still a lot of work on attacking players in this country."

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-designated-player-behind-the-lines-with-nelson-rodriguez/

Forget Garber's comments about fan passion and all the rest, under Rodriguez in house development of attacking and technical players was really the guts of the 2022 plan.

And I don't think that's changed, at least not yet.

I think people are simply mis-reading the Dempsey and Bradley signings as evidence that the league has shifted focus away from developing good younger players and is buying "names". Read that Rodriguez interview, and you'll see MLS has done this before. I'm convinced that the league hopes to get a bounce from the USMNT at the World Cup so it's trying to get prominent players on MLS rosters, just as it did in 2001- 2002. Here's what he said:

". . . around 2000 and 2001 — we strategically moved in the direction of the American player. And so now we were trying to retain Clint Mathis, Josh Wolf, Brian McBride, Chris Armas — guys who we thought would be a big part of the national team, and then if the national team was successful we’d capitalize on that success by having those key guys here. Whether we are geniuses or we just stepped in it, in the 2002 World Cup all of the goals that the U.S. national team scored, save one, were scored by guys in our league."

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-designated-player-behind-the-lines-with-nelson-rodriguez/

That's what we're seeing here IMO, the 2002 strategy warmed over. It's a bridge strategy while the larger strategy of player development settles in. Nothing wrong with that IMO. MLS still has to pay the bills here.

So, as a fan, it's hard for me to be too critical of any of this. The date was silly, but I think the plan was actually thoughtful.

My only hesitation is that I don't yet know what Rodriguez' departure means, especially given MLS' decision to simply divide up his duties rather than get a single, powerful voice to take his place.

That's what we should be watching in the months ahead IMO.

 

Yup...more than I would have spent, but again, I get it. However you have to accept why they had to pay this much to lure these guys back, and I doubt they would have added any extra money to the cap if they hadn't. We are all saying the same thing just with our different views on the issue....not even different views, just weighing things with different levels of importance.

We really all agree, it's just we want, see things slightly differently.

All I can say is that your concerns have been and are the same exact ones that have been brought up every few years.
All that has happened is that the goalposts have moved, and in a positive direction for MLS in general.

My guess is that 10 years from now when the average MLS salary is 500,000 then the same concerns will be raised they will just sound something like this....

.....MLS will never be able to compete with the top Euro squads unless they can pay at least a million for each starter, MLS has to overpay to get top players here, they shouldn't do that and spread the money out more, MLS fans are insecure, we look clownish, etc.

Every time it's exactly the same....the goalposts just move. Just the way it is.

As long as I see steady progress I am OK with it.

Whether you like it or not, big money signings move the buzz, perception meter way more than spreading out the wealth, and unfortunately to get this type of buzz MLS has to pay more....a lot more. The signings are significant, but just another step, just like all the other steps taken in different areas.

MLS simply can't use certain parameters if they want a shot at certain types of players. They have to stretch/break them at times. I know that psychologically this rankles some at times, and a mental following of the rules is needed by some. Of course builders never follow these rules...which is why they are builders. They move adjust and are fluid.

It's quite simple. If MLS doesn't make those transfer signings they aren't spreading the wealth for a few more decent signings for each team. From a business perspective it isn't worth it. Like it or not that's the way it is.

I also strongly disagree with the insecurity, clown statements. You are simply way off base here and that's on you quite honestly. MLS fans have been notorious for being insecure but I have seen a huge change in that attitude over the last few years. I think you are missing the boat there and looking at the past, and not the now.

MLS has never ever been taken more serious as a legit league/player around the world, and the perception is only growing more positive.

There are simply steps and growing pains that have to be taken, and this is where fans lose sight of the proverbial forest for the trees. It can't just happen...it takes time...and you always hear how folks understand and are OK with that, and then grossly contradict themselves within a post or two. Fandom at it's best....


....I get it, but really I don't.

If you want to find insecure MLS fans they are the ones who occupy places like YA or who only follow the Nats, and still talk about MLS as if it was 5,6,7 years ago. Progress almost always is two steps ahead of fandom/perception.


As I alway say....something special is happening with the game here....it's very rare to see the actual construction of a large cultural, societal entity like this. Enjoy the ride.