I mentioned this potential idea in whatever dumb pro/rel thread is popular today- how about MLS teams playing in D2 or D3 as a way to grow those leagues and also provide some meaningful games for MLS reserve teams that currently only have the awful reserves league to play in? This would allow MLS teams to give more competitive games to academy players, trailists, etc., as well as backup/depth guys. I understand there may be some major flaws to this idea: 1) I have no idea if NASL/USL have a bad relationship with MLS - I know they hate one another, and, 2) there might be specific roster rules in NASL/USL that would make it hard to have guys in the league on MLS contracts. I just think it would be a good idea if there's any way to work around those issues. Another potentially useful offshoot of this idea: someone mentioned in the pro/rel thread the idea of MLS buying D2/D3 and turning them into affiliated minor league teams a la baseball. The problem with that right now is that I don't think MLS has the money to operate a minor league at a loss. But you could probably have, say, the New England reserves playing in Hartford, the Seattle reserves playing at Starfire, or the Chivas USA reserves playing in San Diego or whatever as a way of expanding the clubs' footprint.
I would still prefer the Minor league system but as a temp solution teams can stop having U23 or u21 teams in the PDL and reserve teams and put them together and put them in the USL or NASL to provide better competition etc.
Probably two of the best articles written on the subject. http://www.insidemnsoccer.com/2012/...-league-into-americas-lower-divisions-part-1/ http://www.insidemnsoccer.com/2012/...-league-into-americas-lower-divisions-part-2/
Any of these ideas might be nice, but they would all require significantly expanded MLS rosters. The benefit of the current system is that it works with a 25 to 30 man MLS roster; you can pick out the players who didn't play (or didn't play much) on Saturday, add a few youth players, and run them out on Sunday. If you're talking about fielding a full youth affiliate that's going to be playing and traveling separately from the senior team, you're talking about adding a minimum of 10-15 players to the roster to make that practical and still allow the senior team to be training and scrimmaging normally. Even at minimum salary, that's over half a million dollars on salaries alone you're asking each team to add to their bottom line. Plus, if the senior team is training in Seattle ahead of a game against the Sounders, and the reserve team is flying to Antigua, you're going to end up with players who are important backups or bench players who travel with the first team but don't get much, if any, game experience. Right now, those players are starting in MLS reserve games. I think a better solution would be a heavier MLS reserve schedule, with reserve games after every game between teams from the same division.
Nice timing on this topic, joegrav, as I was just thinking of this the other day myself, as sort of a "six-month check-up" for these ideas. And since I read quite a bit of this topic, as well as the what-would-happen-to-a-womens-pro-league and what-will-be-the-new-Open-Cup-format topics, I now have enough business-savy to start my own leagues (the SJJ Division-12 Leagues; accepting team applications now!). To be serious, being in Detroit (a non-pro town, but a solid PDL town), I get leary of the "blow up the NCAA-PDL structure" predictions. I also read things that seem to say, "Don't even try to start a pro team, Motown, becuase the whole pro structure will be re-jiggered by the time you get going." So, any new info on what the 2013 reserve-league will look like? Don't these things come out at the All Star Game?
Ideally D2 or D3 would have a more balanced geographic footprint and it would be possible for MLS reserve teams to participate without requiring a ton of travel time and cost. But that's not the case right now. PDL offers 18 fairly local matches and I'm not sure why more teams don't use PDL sides the way tat Vancouver does. It may be a lower level of play than you would like for your reserves but for now it's a good way for bench and academy players to get games. I don't really understand why some people are enthusiastic about the idea of expanding the reserve league in the long run. All I ever hear from England is that the reserve games are a waste of time and it would be better to field a team in a lower division. Why do we want to copy them?
Looking at who Vancouver uses for its PDL games, they don't seem to view it as a valuable opportunity for anyone who's close to first team minutes. The Caps do field their teen-age home grown signees sometimes, but even those guys aren't playing very often. From that evidence, the PDL looks like a way to smooth the transition from amateur to pro but not the transition from benchwarmer to contributor. Given that most MLS teams aren't too interested in fast-tracking academy players, it's not too surprising that they wouldn't bother with this. Agreed. The usual comment is "do it like the rest of the world" but the subtext is often "do it like England (even if it doesn't work well there)".
I'm glad you pointed this out, as it often seems to be the case. (z.B., Americans call for pro/rel because "everyone does it," but sometimes I wonder if it's just because there are 4 English leagues in FIFA 2012.... lol)
I am all for this, but if it did happen I would like to see II. teams in the 3rd tier as opposed to the NASL. The NASL/2nd tier should be a strong league in its own right, I would not want to see a situation where it just becomes a minor league system for the MLS teams. I doubt this will ever happen, however. As already mentioned, people tend to favor the English system for no particular reason when it is not producing favorable results. We have the gift of having young leagues, and do not to become so dogmatic with our arrangment.
all MLS teams should have U-23 teams in the PDL. Some already do. We have the structure in place for a development league. It's just not being utilized.
agree about NASL. It has the potential to be a strong league. I prefer its business model compared to MLS. and the minor league system will never happen. Why? Because that is not how soccer development is done in successful soccer nations. We already know what works. Anyone advocating for a baseball style farm system for our domestic soccer league is just ignorant about the sport. I don't favor the English system. I favor the German system, the Dutch system, and the Brazilian system.
I really like this idea... right now, we could field this line-up... i'll put in parenthesis possible location sites for reserve teams. West 1. LA Galaxy II (Santa Barbara) 2. Chivas II (Riverside) 3. SJ Earthquakes II (Modesto) 4. Portland Timbers II (Eugene) 5. Vancouver Whitecaps II (Victoria) 6. Seattle Sounders II (Tacoma) 7. Real Salt Lake II (Provo) 8. Colorado Rapids II (Colorado Springs) 9. Sporting Kansas City II (Topeka) 10. FC Edmonton 11. Los Angeles Blues expansion: Phoenix, Albuquerque, Las Vegas, Tucson, Omaha, Boise, Calgary, Winnipeg, Regina, San Diego, San Francisco, Sacramento South 1. Houston Dynamo II (Beaumont) 2. FC Dallas II (Waco) 3. San Antonio Scorpions 4. Puerto Rico Islanders 5. Atlanta Silverbacks 6. Carolina Railhawks 7. Tampa Bay Rowdies 8. Ft Lauderdale Strikers 9. Antigua Barrucuda 10. Charleston Battery 11. Orlando City SC 12. Wilmington Hammerheads 13. Charlotte Eagles 14. Richmond Kickers expansion: Chattanooga, Nashville, Birmingham, Memphis, Baton Rouge, Little Rock, Jacksonville, Bradenton, Miami, Greenville, Columbia, Asheville, Virginia Beach North 1. DC United II (Baltimore) 2. Columbus Crew II (Cincinnati) 3. Chicago Fire II (Rockford) 4. Toronto FC II (London) 5. Montreal Impact II (Quebec City) 6. New York Red Bulls II (Bridgeport) 7. New England Revolution II (Worcester) 8. Philadelphia Union II (Allentown) 9. Minnesota Stars 10. Pittsburgh Riverhounds 11. Rochester Rhinos 12. Dayton Dutch Lions 13. Harrisburg City Islanders 14. Ottawa expansion: Hartford, New Haven, Syracuse, Buffalo, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Charleston, Portland
we already know what works in other countries... not USA. Otherwise it would've have been done by now. besides when has anyone ever tried a minor league in soccer?? sports are all about innovating and adapting, for all you know it could turn out to be an even better model than the current one
probably not much in a general sense, but in our case it allows USL and NASL to not spend large in money that they don't have for youth development... also it allows the teams to more easily dictate a player's development by being able to easily move them up or down the chain as needed. And all i would cost is a few more salaries (okay several more) and to get NASL and USL teams to agree to take free players from a specific team and play them, and probably as a result attract more fan interest. Though the cost is actually more than what im painting (since you'll have to pay contracts to essentially fill about 3 minor league teams worth of players if we do three tiers, with the salaries increased with each level), but as the league starts to generate a higher amount of revenue they should be able to do it. Expand the draft to include kids coming out of academies/graduating from high school (obviously they will make rules protecting mls academy products so that those teams get a choice to take those players without a draft), and not just exclusively college kids. Likely you will see scenarios like bryce harper where you will have kids graduating high school early so they can get into the minor league system as a younger age, which is kind of what we are shooting for (get kids more professional training at a younger age). There's likely some kinks you will have to work out but i honestly see this as a much more likely path than to truly have an european pyramid model.
the problem is we aren't dealing with the NFL. A draft is ok for the NFL. They are the only football league. The are the only game in town. a draft for soccer is asinine. The kid that grows up in LA has a chance to go to LAG or Chivas academy. The kid in florida? Join the draft...hope you like playing in Toronto 1000 miles away from your family. at the risk of sounding repetitive, we already know what works (contrary to what you said earlier it has not been tried in America.) anyway...your minor league system is not even realistic. The cost of running such a system would be too expensive for MLS teams today, tomorrow , and ten years from now. So the good news is this horrible idea will never come to fruition. The bad news is we in America are going to continue to do stupid things that hurt our player development and make our league a sham.
Except that's not how it works, but you know, keep trying. (Hint, look at Salt Lake's Academy in Phoenix or Colorado's in Las Vegas for an example of where MLS's Academy system is going).
some Mexican team have academies in LA and some Texas towns. The one thing I do not like is the regional monopolies that teams get when they set up an academy. I understand MLS does it to save money since setting up academies is a very expensive investment.
to be honest i really don't see a problem with it. Hell a flight from florida to toronto would take approximately 3 hours. Going back to baseball a lot of minor league kids, especially in single A and double A live with a host family for a little while if the team is nowhere near the location of the family. Some will rent a cheaper apartment with 3 or 4 other teammates, it happens constantly. A lot of minor leaguers are actually quite poor, unless you are a highly touted triple A player your making probably at best $30,000 a year (and most make around $6,000 to $24,000 a year, which is about $500 to $2,000 a month based on level of minor league). I think some of the better triple A players will make up to 60,000-125,000 a year, but really most of the salary expense in baseball are to the very high level prospects or to major league players. The fact is if you have a desire to be a professional soccer player, you will take that route. That or you can go abroad, and i imagine if a good infrastructure was in place for player development most would definitely take the domestic route, even if at worst case they get drafted by a team that's very far away.
The reserve league system was rather botched by the premier league. There used to be several regional leagues for reserves teams which worked fairly well in terms of their purpose, but the premier league decided to have all of its teams in its own reserve league. Because it was no longer regionalised, they then had to split in north and south, which meant a very small schedule of just 18 games a year. Consequently clubs didn't really bother and put youth teams out, making it even more useless. It also weakened the regional reserve leagues as well, so a big "well done guys" all round to the premier league there. The big issue with fielding reserve/youth teams in lower leagues (over there) would be the impact that playing a reserve team would have on crowds at that level. Would Fictitious City FC in that lower league getting a better or worse crowd playing Kansas Reserves?
I'm a supporter of the NPSL Mass United FC...and the biggest crowd we got all last season was when the New Jersey Fizzydrinks brought their NPSL squad down.