MLS/PRO Lockout of PSRA

Discussion in 'Referee' started by RedStar91, Feb 13, 2014.

  1. Dustinnotacop

    Dustinnotacop Member

    Jan 31, 2014
    There is a reason that numbers 77-140 are not there and if there is a strike will not be there because they still have a chance. Don't think that rookie whistles are chosen at random, they were given important games and succeeded. Your example of a referee that was given some of the Top games in the country and did a good job and then went down to do an NCAA game and made a bad call, doesn't really make sense to me.

    This is about referee skill and confidence and some people just can't hang which is why the stagnate at a certain level (which is fine I never played in the MLS). The difference between NCAA and the MLS is huge, while both physical leagues the MLS actually has skilled players that make the game immeasurably quick and hard to officiate. In contrast a NCAA game is slow, meandering kickball at best with players who's main skills are trapping the ball down 5 yards away from them, or waiting until someone is right on top of them before booting it elsewhere. It's just two different worlds, and I'm sorry but most of the NCAA refs would get a really rude awakening if they tried a serious MLS game. Heck it seems that some MLS referees can't seem to adjust to the speed of some games which is why the biggest referees are given those games. So there are tiers at the very top as well.

    I agree with you though, I wanna see it too.
     
  2. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because you also need the support of the existing PRO leadership to get there for real some day as well. The game also isn't about the referees. MLS has actual paying customers. Sit down in front of 19k in Philly and see how that goes. Part of this is also about making it even harder for you to take a PRO guy's spot, I think that's an important consideration though there are clearly other political considerations.
     
  3. Billy South Philly

    Jan 28, 2013
    Newtown Square, PA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just laugh at the vitriol towards 4's and 5's like they are amateur hour referees. Don't any of you realize this is a move to close the shop and keep the circle intact? Good luck in trying to make it to MLS if they have their way. I have yet to see a National Referee come out and help those aspiring 7's. They don't care about them, but themselves. This whole ref solidarity is quite misguided.
     
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  4. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Amen!! Is it any coincidence that with the news that Kelly might be coming here to take games that suddenly PSRA is threatening to strike? This potential strike is all about preserving the status quo. They want to make it harder to get into MLS than it is now.

    Stand by them and support their cause...Where are they for me? I don't see them picketing for us so US Soccer can pay for our travel and board at the DA playoffs.

    This thread has really got me fired up now. I really want a strike to happen because I think many would be surprised at how well the scabs would do.

    I think many on this board are giving way too much credit to the quality of MLS referees. The gulf between the lower tier MLS refs and Nationals just below MLS is not that great. You're really telling me that there isn't a guy out there who could do a similar performance to Stoica, Gonzalez, or Foerester?
     
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  5. RefGil

    RefGil Member

    Dec 10, 2010
    I didn't say that 4s and 5s are amateur hour. I said that the 4s and 5s that still have a reasonable shot (or at least think they do) likely won't commit the career suicide that comes with taking these games. So what you're left with are the 4s and 5s that (a) aren't going to make it, and (b) know they won't ever make it, so have nothing to lose.

    And, at least around these neck of the woods, I see 4s/5NC/5s/6s helping 6s/7s/8s to get better all of the time. Telling them what they need to do to get better. Telling them what worked and what didn't work on the way up the ladder.

    Maybe Philly has a different attitude toward helping out your fellow refs, the city's sobriquet notwithstanding. Heck, it's been more than 45 years, but Philly is still best known for pelting Santa with snowballs at an Iggles game.

    And I think you're jumping to a conclusion with respect to the goals of the PSRA. I haven't seen anything that indicates that PSRA is trying to manage assignments, or maintain a "closed shop". We don't really know what issues are in conflict between the PSRA and PRO.
     
  6. IARef96

    IARef96 Member

    Oct 19, 2010
    Clive, IA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The comments in this thread attack PRO for allegedly telling referees that their careers would be impacted for engaging in union activity. The comments then suggest that those who choose not to engage in union activity (replacement refs) will be committing career suicide. So, discrimination or retaliation based on organizing is bad when it's against organizing employees, but not when it's against those who would rather not be represented by PSRA?
     
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  7. IARef96

    IARef96 Member

    Oct 19, 2010
    Clive, IA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Probably not coincidence, but I doubt they're striking over one foreign referee being allowed to help raise the bar. I was EXCITED to hear that we were bringing Kelly over; I think it's a great motivator to our referees and it mitigates complacency.
     
  8. tomek75

    tomek75 Member+

    Aug 13, 2012
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm with RefGil on this one. Around here I work with 3, 4 and 5 on regular basis and soon I will be working with a 2. I also have an open communication path with Herb S. and others that have ties to the highest level. I am already too old to make it to FIFA and probably PRO as well. I stated this hobby way to late in life, but having these guys around and actually providing input to someone like me, tells you something about the type of people that they are. These are the same people that stepped up and helped a not so popular referee pass a physical because he was lagging behind. Selfless and wanting to give back to the lower ranks.
     
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  9. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do we hold all people from LA accountable for a Dodgers fan killing a Giants fan? Look up what actually happened there with Santa. You'd have booed him and threw snowballs too. It was dirty, drunk, and skinny Santa trotted out at the end of a miserable Eagles season...

    Now on the capability of the people who may be called in as replacements, I think it'll be rough but I also don't think PRSA members or PRO look good should it come to that and games are messed up as a consequence. For me, the PRSA members look better by coming to the games, acting professional, and kicking ass.
     
  10. andymoss

    andymoss BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 4, 2007
    Nashville, TN
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    The other Tennessee National Referee and I are driving to a tournament in Memphis this weekend having arranged for one current & two former MLS Referees and a National Assessor to come in and work with a group of grades 5-8 referees.

    We did the same thing in Knoxville last month. There we brought in an International Referee and his National Referee wife.

    We are putting on another even in the middle part of the state next month.

    One of my mentees was named Youth Male National Referee of the Year.

    We only care for ourselves.....
     
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  11. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    I really don't think that this reflects reality in most of the country. Moreover it is quite insulting to all those who actually do a lot to give back and help with clinics, seminars, assessing and also just informal personal advice.

    PH
     
  12. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    Very nice. You could have brought in an International Referee and her National Referee husband! It's all in the family.

    PH
     
  13. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Andy, he clearly didn't communicate that well. I, personally, know many national and MLS referees in the Philly area who have been supportive and dedicated to helping others. I think the bigger point is the fear that those taking assignments during a work action would have to face reprisals from the striking referees. Personally, I find that to be as reprehensible as the thread PRO is alleged to have made.
     
  14. camconcay

    camconcay Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Feb 17, 2011
    Georgia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Probably preaching to the choir here - but how many show up for this opportunity? At the FL ECNL event there were many national referees and the event brought in professional referees for on field clinics, classroom sessions, and they were all walking around giving advice and would go watch if you requested. The attendance was not overwhelming. Many that are working their way up were there (6 's and 5's) but hardly any locals (who got great assignments anyway) and not many "regular" referees (career 8's I guess).

    Having a former FIFA that has offered their services to help train and mentor referees in my area I can say first hand that the willingness to help is there for enough upper level referees that it would make a difference. It has to be discouraging to give their time and see poor turnouts and at some point I am sure they see it as no longer worth their effort.

    Like any population, there are good and bad and I have seen some poor attitudes from high grade referees but the vast majority are more than willing to help in my experience.
     
  15. RefGil

    RefGil Member

    Dec 10, 2010
    Fair enough. I did point out that it was more than 45 years ago. And the guy they pulled from the stands to be Santa claims that he was neither dirty nor drunk. :laugh:

    In terms of miserable seasons, note my avatar that that team's history over the past, say, 50 years.
     
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  16. Eastshire

    Eastshire Member+

    Apr 13, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Supporting the strike (if it happens) is career suicide for many of the referees as well. There will be several of them who, on their merits, should make MLS who won't get there do to union protection of aging, no longer more skilled referees who are union members. Unions are about closing the door to new workers in order to better the position of its members.
     
  17. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Noted good sir! :)
     
  18. IARef96

    IARef96 Member

    Oct 19, 2010
    Clive, IA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Quite the generalization, and I don't think it's accurate. Unions generally want more workers (thus, more members,) but don't want older, competent workers replaced by younger workers just because the younger workers are cheaper.
     
  19. Eastshire

    Eastshire Member+

    Apr 13, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Unions want more union workers, yes. But good luck to you if you just want to work without associating with the union. They also don't want the older, incompetent workers replaced or the younger, incompetent workers replaced, either.
     
  20. IARef96

    IARef96 Member

    Oct 19, 2010
    Clive, IA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We disagree again. Unions have a legitimate interest in ensuring competence and allowing management to have their way with the incompetent workers.
     
  21. Eastshire

    Eastshire Member+

    Apr 13, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I agree they should have such an interest. I've never seen one act on it. Just look at the New York City schools. They have rooms and rooms full of "teachers" who can't be allowed in contact with children but they are unable to fire because of the union.
     
  22. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh come on Andy, let's give his father some credit as well :)

    Ya I'm not sure why someone said that most high level refs don't give back and help out. Almost all the ones I know do, just like you guys do. I think I actually enjoy mentoring and helping out referees or instructing classes more than I do ref'ing games sometimes.
     
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  23. IARef96

    IARef96 Member

    Oct 19, 2010
    Clive, IA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Because of the union" is a cop out. It's, generally, more of a case that management can't satisfy their burden under the CBA, which is designed to prevent arbitrary disciplinary action. Failure to address incompetence remains a management issue.
     
  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Friendly reminder... Not counting @GoDawgsGo 's post, the acronyms "MLS," "PRO," "PSRA" are nowhere to be found in the last several posts and there's nothing about soccer, yet the word "union" is in every one. If people want a political or philosophical debate on unions, that debate will be moved elsewhere.
     
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  25. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    At the risk of bringing soccer back into this . . .;)

    Some of this reminds me of the DOGSO discussion. There are things we want to root out -- and there is collateral damage in terms of over-inclusion. But to get rid of the over-inclusion, we risk under-inclusion. Similarly, the protections created in CBAs (and state laws) erect hurdles to be scaled to discipline employees; while oft erected with good intentions (and agreed to in the negotiating process with good intentions), the hurdles to protect the innocent can over-protect the guilty as well.

    Any line (be it DOGSO guidelines or protection of union employees) balances false positives against false negatives. Whether the false negative or the false positive is the greater evil is often a mater of perspective. Teachers with an administrators they doen't trust are going to see the balance very differently from the administrator trying to elimiante problems -- just as defenders are going to see the DOGSO balancing differently from forwards.

    I would not at all be surprised if one of the key issues being negotiated is the scope of PRO's discretion to demote/discipline/reward referees. As I understand it, the rules are very different in the different professional leauges in the U.S., with MLB umpires having the broadest protections and security. (At the same time, at least some of the reports seem to suggest that mosto of the non-economic issues were worked out, so absent inside info, it seems we are speculating about whether this is a key issue or not.)
     
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