MLS/PRO Lockout of PSRA

Discussion in 'Referee' started by RedStar91, Feb 13, 2014.

  1. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    If a strike does happen, I see alot of the next tier guys accepting the scab assignments. Many say that the lower level guys won't out of respect for their PRO colleagues and for the "cause" but I disagree.

    This won't be like the NFL officials strike where the high level DI college refs all turned down NFL assignments. Remember those college refs would have to turn back their college assignments which have match fees of $5000 to do the NFL game. All some 4 or 5 will have to turn back is your local Men's League game or youth game that pays $60.

    I can't speak for everyone, but I would accept an MLS scab assignment in a heart beat and I wouldn't begrudge/judge anyone who did.

    Every one is trying to get to that level and with MLS now much more of a closed shop than before I think it's foolish to not accept the assignment out of respect for Ricardo Salazar's cause. Hell, all these 4s and 5s want to take Salazar's spot.
     
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It does not surprise me that the friendship/loyalty/camaraderie argument doesn't work with everyone. But that's just one side of the coin. Let me try to distill the other side:

    If a strike occurs, it will eventually end. And our FIFAs and Grade 3s will still be our FIFAs and Grade 3s. And whomever works as a "replacement" official, if it comes to that, will be back where they were. Now, those FIFAs and Grade 3s--the guys who are mentors at Regional and National events, instructors at major clinics, who hover around academies and tournaments, the guys who are about to be National Assessors after they retire (you know, the guys who help identify people for consideration to the next level)... what do you think their disposition will be toward the aspiring Grade 4s who crossed a picket line viz-a-viz those that didn't?

    Walton and PRO won't remember "replacement refs" a week after they work. But the current MLS referees and ARs will. And the way things stand currently, the latter have a lot more influence in how you actually get to MLS.

    If someone wants to make a few extra hundred bucks for a couple weekends, throw away MLS aspirations (or concede they never were serious about them) and always get to say they worked an MLS game or two, then yes, it's worth it. For me--friendship aside, though that plays a role--simple logic dictates that it is not.
     
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  3. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I agree with your logic MassRef and if PRO were not around and getting into MLS was like pre-PRO were it was much easier to get picked for MLS it would make sense to not accept games. Before PRO, MLS refereeing was "us against them" mentality. All the referees and admins related to the refereeing were on the same side/team. Now the referees are one side and Walton/PRO are on another.

    Walton makes the call who is in the league and who isn't where before it was more collective.

    The thing is unless you're in the Platinum Program the odds of getting called up to the league are slim to none. The pool is alot smaller now and it will probably take years of waiting to get your shot. By then most people move on with their lives and stop refereeing. Look at the Mariscal twins, they have done everything asked of them and they still can't get into MLS.

    I think the alienating your future bosses angle is a little exaggerated for me at least. If you're a 30 year old grade 4 and you're not in the Platinum Program and you get a call to do a game and you are going to turn it down because you don't want to upset Ricardo Salazar down the road when he's an assessor??
     
  4. Eastshire

    Eastshire Member+

    Apr 13, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    There is no organization that represents "our interests" as referees, in general. (For no small part that we don't all have the same interests.) PSRA, represents the interests of members (and, perhaps, only slightly more than half of its members).

    PSRA is, to my mind, one of the worse things to happen to American soccer since I started paying attention to it. It will cause referees to can't hack it to continue to get games and slow, if not prevent, new referees who can from getting games. That's bad for soccer in general, and it's bad for most of us as referees too. And if they strike, you can go ahead and have MLS's tombstone engraved, "Referees thought they were more important than the game."

    In any other context but a union, this would be called extortion. But it's absolutely correct.
     
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  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Glad we agree in principle, but we obviously disagree on the current status of things. So excuse my selective quoting, but let me just pick apart the things I disagree with.

    Facts not in evidence. You just had a two ARs from the US move onto the list. One of them was definitely not Platinum and I don't think Felisha was either, right? And you had two new fourth officials last year, one who was Platinum, one who wasn't, and I think a decent argument could be made the one who was could/would have got there without Platinum. I've also heard rumors that not everyone that needs to be enamored with Platinum as the gateway to MLS is actually enamored with it. Platinum could certainly end up being the best road to get to MLS, but we have no idea if that's actually true yet.

    Given their sister just got added to the league list, I think "can't" is a very strong--and incorrect--word here. They're young. Many ARs are going to age out soon. I think you'll see both in the league quite soon.

    Well, I think you've taken my argument to the extreme (or maybe absurd). Let's use a more real-world scenario for a second. Craig Lowry is on the National selection panel and is regularly at major events in Region 1, helping the National Assessors, Instructors and administrators identify talent. He likely knows the names of all the referees in the region under 35 that hold legitimate MLS aspirations. You want him on your side or not? There are plenty of other examples like him around the country. We may just have a fundamental disagreement on our respective approaches here.
     
  6. Lucky Wilbury

    Lucky Wilbury Member

    Mar 19, 2012
    United States
    It's not always about the money. Although, if you keep reading, some of those referees can't even get paid $60 for a game anymore.

    The NFL situation has been misrepresented a few times in some recent threads. Current NFL officials often also work as Coordinators/Instructors/Administrators for NCAA Conferences at a variety of levels, in addition to random HS administration jobs around the country. NCAA Conference Commissioners did not want their referees working NFL games because that means they would need to find replacements and, thus, have worse refereeing in their conference. NCAA Ref Coordinators didn't want NCAA refs to step in because, in some cases, it was their job the replacement would be taking. To think that the replacement refs would be able to step right back in to their old jobs and stay in good graces with their NCAA bosses is absolutely foolish. There have been several articles written about HS football refs being black-balled locally in HS leagues due to them accepting NFL replacement assignments. High School. They can't get assigned to a High School game.

    Take those NFL relationships/jobs/positions and apply them to soccer in the US...sound eerily familiar to MassRef's post earlier?

    I would venture a guess that the infamous petition on change.org involving Ricardo Salazar's ability would quickly be replaced by one titled "For God's Sake, Please Bring Back Ricardo Salazar and Fire RedStar91".
     
  7. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    I don't think Felisha was either, right?

    Incorrect. Felisha was in the Platinum Program for one year.
     
  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks.
     
  9. Errol V

    Errol V Member+

    Mar 30, 2011
    I think their disposition should be respectful and professional. If you turn down a job it is nothing but petty to see revenge against the fellow who sees a chance to better himself by accepting what you don't want.
     
  10. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    The problem is that most 4s or 5s who have never been on the pitch in any capacity for a pro-level match
    will soon find himself completely out of his depth, and will not be able to cope with everything that is
    going on as well as dealing withe the players and benches. It may look easy from the outside but the
    reality is different. It would be much better for themselves, regardless of offending anyone, if they realized this
    to begin with with and refused to work the games. SImply put, they would not be ready nor competent enough
    going in cold like that.

    PH
     
  11. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    @MassachusettsRef and @RedStar91 I don't think either one of you is right or wrong. You both bring up good examples of hypothetical individuals and the fact is that there are guys who would fall on both sides of the fence for all of the reasons you both bring up and probably a couple. Personally, I'm on MassRef's side here. No way would I accept an MLS assignment if it were offered to me. If I were that good I'd already be there. It's both out of respect to guys who have mentored me and what's the point in crossing them by taking their games? I think it's disrespectful to them and even though I won't make it to that level I'd appreciate their feedback and assessments for years to come.

    I'm surprised no one else has brought up a bigger picture to this whole scenario though. It's not just MLS that PSRA is dealing with when it comes to negotiations or what they are representing. USL Pro fees are absolutely f'ing PATHETIC for the center refs flying in and taking 2-3 days out of their lives to make like $250 total in the hopes of going from MLS 4th to referee. Even though ARs/4ths are local, their compensation for making it to that 'pro' level is also laughable. High school games pay as much as those assignments. NASL is only slightly better.
     
  12. dolphinscoach

    dolphinscoach Member

    Apr 17, 2002
    Bellevue, NE
    One could make an argument (what the heck - I'll make the argument) that MLS is more likely to take a rigid stance v. the refs now to position itself for a similar hardline position in next year's CBA negotiations with the player's union. This is not an uncommon negotiating strategy from management/owner perspective when negotiating with a smaller unit prior to negotiating with a larger. Even if MLS privately thinks the refs' requests/demands are reasonable, the strategy necessitates taking an initial public position that sends a message that MLS is going to fight for every dime. First, as billf notes, MLS has to avoid the impression that it will give in to ref demands or else players may expect to have all their demands met. Second, MLS can tell PSRA (and they may be sincere when saying it) that the expected demands from players makes it impossible to offer what is asked for. Third, MLS can take the position next year that the players should appreciate how hard the league fought against PSRA to be able to offer a little more to the players, but "really we still don't have all that much so believe us that this is the best we can offer to you now." Fourth, MLS wants the players to see what they can expect next year if they push for too much (i.e., you've seen how hard we will fight).

    What also may be at play is differing versions of what is best "for pro soccer in this country as a whole." In this MLS/PSRA situation, one could argue that for pro soccer to grow, all aspects (management, players and officials) need to grow. The league needs quality officiating, so it should invest with a level of compensation that allows officials to focus more/better on their job - and then one still has the debate about how much and in what forms that investment/compensation should be. That also has to be balanced against issues of player development (e.g., acceptable minimum salaries, reserve leagues, academies, etc.), increasing league visibility (e.g., marquee players, quality on pitch, getting TV coverage, etc.), allowing owners to turn a profit (or not go under) - and there is not universal agreement on any of these, nor is there universal agreement about which of these should be prioritized. I would be surprised if all owners and league officials agree on which short-term vs. long-term costs/benefits to pursue.

    One last thought: Refs should be united, and not just because the other parties are (i.e., the owners/league are united, the players union is a collective, so as the smallest unit in the mix, these folks (you folks) are in the least advantageous position). I think it helps the integrity of the game to have the officials seen as apart from management, or else there can be a suspicion that certain calls were made to favor certain players or teams so that the ref can keep his job or earn a larger paycheck. (Soccer fans are a suspicious lot, especially if they think their team has been treated unfairly by an official.)

    As a fan, I hope that all parties will seek equitable agreements that improve soccer's popularity and quality in the US. Good luck!
     
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  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    THANK YOU! I had been debating how to say something like this with the right level of tact. But you put it more succinctly than I ever could. People with aspirations for MLS would put themselves back years--despite of or in addition to all the political issues--if they actually took charge of matches without the right training and preparation.
     
  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Even more succinct than PH, and spot on--particularly the first sentence.

    Well, now we're back into the economics of the US pro game, which we've discussed before on occasion. It sucks that game fees are so low for divisions below MLS but, unfortunately, so are professional contracts for players. If the players aren't making money at that level, you can't expect the referees to do so.
     
  15. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree and disagree. The center refs have no choice but to accept those assignments if they want to make it to MLS. Granted it's the same for some players toiling in those leagues to try and make it to the big time and sacrificing awful pay to live their dream of being a 'pro' soccer player, and so that certainly is logical that refs must make the same sacrifice.
     
  16. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    how can that be??:D

    But talking of replacements, the thought occurred to me that MLS in a pinch could use Kelly, and even Walton himself. It hasn't been too long since he was an EPL referee. In a pinch they might also be able to recall Hall and Kennedy and one or two other recently retired guys. They would still have to find competent ARs though, and that might be even more difficult, given the pace of the modern MLS match.

    PH
     
  17. Billy South Philly

    Jan 28, 2013
    Newtown Square, PA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Terry Vaughn, come on down!
     
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  18. Erocker

    Erocker Member

    Apr 2, 2012
    Club:
    CD Jalapa
    Can I get a "hell yeah" for Michael Kennedy?! ;)
     
  19. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    But are the referees doingthe USL/NASL games part of the union?
     
  20. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    As I said before, comparing an MLS ref strike to the NFL ref strike is apples and oranges. The second tier and level of football in this country is a much higher and more pressure packed level than the second tier of soccer in this country. As an SEC or Pac 12 ref in order to take an NFL assignment, you would have to turn back an assignment that pays $5000 and that's been made months in advance to take an assignment that's not that much more prestigious. Is a Browns vs. Bills game much better than LSU vs. Alabama?

    What will you have to turn back as a second tier soccer refeee? A PDL game in Mississippi for $95 in front of a crowd of a couple hundred? Apples and oranges.

    I think, in principle, it makes sense for all the 4s and 5s to decline scab assignments. But, to me, in reality I think it's silly. I know this analogy/metaphor won't fly with most, but I'll say it any ways. I look at getting an MLS scab assignment like having the chance to get in the sack with Scarlet Johansson. Sure, she maybe may be married and it might not be the "right" thing to do, but how many chances do you get to say you were with her. There really only about 20 current Nationals/5s that have any chance to get to MLS in the next 5-10 years and I think that might be too high. What is the penalty if you're not one of those 20 for accepting an assignment? Craig Lowry might decline your National badge? What games will you be missing out on then? I doubt Craig Lowry would be that petty, but even if he is than I wouldn't want to be part of a program like that doesn't want referees to take advantage of opportunities.

    Also, I don't really understand why we should stand with the PRO refs and support their cause? Where are they for us? Would they support us if we all, collectively, decided not to attend the DA Winter/Summer Showcase until we got our rooms or travel paid for (US Soccer covers the players rooms)? Would they say "we're not coming to instruct/mentor at these events until refs get taken care of?" I don't see them standing by us. I see refereeing in this country as every man for himself and to turn down an MLS game because you don't want to hurt Jair Marrufo's feelings is silly to me.

    Now if you don't want accept an assignment out of fear of embarrassing yourself or thinking you will not be able to handle the game. Then I have no problem with that.
     
  21. Slaskwroclaw18

    Jun 26, 2011
    Philadelphia, PA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I feel even if a referee didn't feel he had a legitimate shot at MLS in the next several years should not accept a scab assignment. It comes down to principle. We can all agree that referees are under appreciated all the way around. If the referees at the highest level are not given fair compensation and appreciation what are the chances grass root referees will be given any appreciation? And I think you are being unfair to the PRO refs. I have heard many accounts (I have yet to experience it myself since my reffing career has been relatively short thus far) where they came to mentor at events, seminars, etc or went above their duties to the Federation.
     
  22. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

    Apr 7, 2004
    Southern NH
    See that's the thing, we don't know what the issues are, so we don't know if we should support the striking officials! What if their demands are dumb, like $5000/game, or some other ridiculous request? Soccer simply doesn't have the money to support referees like NFL, NBA or baseball do. Many players are barely getting by, around the world MOST referees for soccer need other jobs.

    So, what are the sticking points in the negotiations? What are the numbers? Until we know that we don't know who to support.
     
  23. oldmanreferee

    oldmanreferee Member

    Dec 28, 2005
    Mountain View, ca
    I was told that part of the package is open cup fees, They are working on the lower levels as well, i was told it was not just for MLS
     
  24. refinDC

    refinDC Member

    Aug 7, 2012
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This raises what I've been wondering about -- this isn't ACTUALLY negotiations with MLS, right?

    It's negotiations between PRSA and PRO -- which obviously includes MLS which will have a (the?) big say here, but also US Soccer which should in theory have an eye on the bigger picture through at least a level or two of the pyramid. Or am I missing something?
     
  25. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Per PSRA's site:
    So it makes sense that a CBA would address coverage of the three leagues.
     
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