MLS Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

Discussion in 'Sporting Kansas City' started by NorthbankHighbury, Jan 19, 2011.

  1. Felixx219

    Felixx219 BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 8, 2004
    Kansas City, MO
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]


    When you play with the away goals rule you are not longer playing the same sport, it becomes a different sport entirely. A goal is worth a single point. When you use the away goals rule, away goals become more valuable and it is no longer the same sport.

    As I said before, games are played in different fashions and a team should not be punished because they ended up hosting a game that ended up being higher scoring than their away game.

    The things you mention prove the point that it makes the game different and not the same game. A goal is a point. Any rule that makes certain goals more valuable break one of the most important rules in the entire game.

    The away goals rule is like the NBA looking the other way in constant traveling.
     
  2. NorthbankHighbury

    Jan 25, 2009
    Liberty, MO
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

    Just meaningless waffle really ... it is the FIFA sanctioned game, what are you talking about?
     
  3. Roush

    Roush Member

    Dec 19, 2001
    Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

    Did you complain as vociferously when FIFA made wins worth three points in round-robin tournaments as opposed to two for the 1994 World Cup?
     
  4. Felixx219

    Felixx219 BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 8, 2004
    Kansas City, MO
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

    You do realize that that is a very poor comparison and not the same thing?

    In that situation ALL teams got three points for ALL wins.
     
  5. Felixx219

    Felixx219 BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 8, 2004
    Kansas City, MO
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

    I was responding to your mention that it was a good move to implement the away goals rule.
     
  6. Buzz Killington

    Buzz Killington Member+

    Oct 6, 2002
    Lee's Summit
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]


    And so was your basketball/traveling analogy.
     
  7. Felixx219

    Felixx219 BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 8, 2004
    Kansas City, MO
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

    Not in the context in which I was using it.

    It is two governing bodies changing one of the primary rules of their respective sports which ruins the integrity of said sport.

    Changing wins from two points to three points doesnt change the integrity of the game or change a single thing about the way the games were played .
     
  8. Buzz Killington

    Buzz Killington Member+

    Oct 6, 2002
    Lee's Summit
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

    Actually it does. One of the main reasons they switched to 3 points instead of 2 was in an effort to get teams to attack more. They thought by giving teams another point for a win they'd come out and attack more looking for the win.
     
  9. Roush

    Roush Member

    Dec 19, 2001
    Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

    Opinion stated as fact.
     
  10. jtreg

    jtreg Member

    Aug 16, 2010
    State of denial
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

    That tele-conference was certainly not "Major":eek:. But I did not know that LD could speak Espanol that well (for a gringo).
     
  11. TheSmokingPun

    TheSmokingPun Member

    Mar 31, 2010
    Kansas City, MO
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

    Someone was telling me once that he played on a team with a bunch of Hispanic kids and picked it up from them, eventually becoming quite fluent.
     
  12. NorthbankHighbury

    Jan 25, 2009
    Liberty, MO
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

    You realize that this sport is always changing right? That it always has evolved and always will and that all sports change with time. Just in my lifetime they have changed points awarded for wins all over the world (except britain where it was already a 3 point win). Backpass rule changes, offside changes including level and your onside and the 'not interfering with play' change, 'professional foul' changes, point awards, golden goal, the abolition of golden goal, the formats of almost every tournament in the world .... including the World Cup, the FA Cup, the Premier League, the champions league, the installation of playoffs in leagues all over the place. Fair play awards. In 2014 Europeans Clubs will be subject to Financial laws that will ban them from European play if they don't break even .... it changes all the time ...

    The only thing that speaks to the integrity in all this is FIFA and the shit storm they are in now but the vast majority of fans that get this game appreciated the Away Goal rule (which has been around since the 60s) was a step up from draws, replays and ultimately dereased numbers of penalty shootouts.

    Its really a stretch dude ... to challenge of 40-50 year old accepted method of deciding games without the random horse shit of penalties that nobody but morons like as an integrity issue, especially after the early days of MLS and the stunts they pulled and then act like a puritan looking at the world game and saying it lacks integrity :D ... c'mon, we don't even know our playoff format for this season yet.

    And it worked as well especially in conjuction with the banning of the backpass in 1992.
     
  13. Buzz Killington

    Buzz Killington Member+

    Oct 6, 2002
    Lee's Summit
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  14. Felixx219

    Felixx219 BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 8, 2004
    Kansas City, MO
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]



    Yes, I know the sport changes over time but that doesnt mean I have to like all of the changes.

    PKs are a far better tiebreaker than away goals (not that that is a great way to do it). Having the two head coaches go to the middle of field and see who could juggle soccer balls the longest is about as good of a tiebreaker and no, I am not exaggerating; it is that bad of a way to break a tie. I would rather see a coin flip, play extra time until the players are on the verge of death, have the supporters fight to the death in the middle of the field, or anything else.

    Away goals is my least favorite rule of the game. How anyone who likes this game could think that is okay is beyond me. It is a joke. It violates the spirit of this game.

    A goal is a goal. It doesnt matter how it was scored or where it was scored. A goal is a goal and it is worth a single point. Next to the handball, it is probably the most important rule in the entire game. Do you disagree?

    Explain to me how this is okay:

    Team A and Team B play each other in an aggregate series.

    Game 1 - Team A hosts and they live in a lousy climate. When the game comes it is 30 degrees and freezing rain. The ball has a hard time moving around the field. The game is slow moving and it ends up with Team A winning 1-0 in a hard fought game.

    Game 2 - Team B lives in a warm climate. When the game comes, it is is 70 degrees and sunny. The pitch is in perfect condition. The game is fast paced and their are a lot of goals. The final is 3-2 with Team B winning.

    Both teams won a game and both teams scored 3 goals. However, Team A was fortunate enough to be the vistor in the game played in better conditions and wins (if you can call it that) the series.

    How can anyone think that is okay? The point of an aggregate series is to determine which team is better in the series. If both teams score the same amount of goals and both teams win or tie both games, that was not determined.

    That isnt sport and that isnt fair. It is a horrible way to determine a winner. It has nothing to do with skill or who was the better team. It is all chance. If a tiebreaker isnt based on who is better, then it doesnt work.
     
  15. Felixx219

    Felixx219 BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 8, 2004
    Kansas City, MO
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  16. Buzz Killington

    Buzz Killington Member+

    Oct 6, 2002
    Lee's Summit
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

    It's original intention was designed to get away teams to do more than just put 10 behind the ball on the road and go for the 0-0 draw. I'm all for a rule that at least is designed to encourage a more open attacking game.

    That's not violating the spirit of the game.
     
  17. Felixx219

    Felixx219 BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 8, 2004
    Kansas City, MO
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]


    It does when it makes it unfair like it is in my scenario I wrote.

    I do agree that rules that encourage attacking are good. However, they need to be made so that it doesnt make certain goals worth more than other or violate other essential rules that make the sport a sport.

    A team that wins a series by away goals isnt really winning anything. They are getting fortunate that they just happen to score more goals in one game than another. It's luck and it's chance.

    Some teams are better on the road. Some teams are better at home. Some teams play the same wherever they play. It is a ridiculous way to break a tie.

    It's not different than breaking the tie by saying the team that scores more first half goals wins the game.

    Break a tie using the game and make the players use their skills to do so. Anything else is an abomination.
     
  18. NorthbankHighbury

    Jan 25, 2009
    Liberty, MO
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

    Go yell at 1965.
     
  19. Buzz Killington

    Buzz Killington Member+

    Oct 6, 2002
    Lee's Summit
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

    So site a real life example where that's played out.

    So then how would you break ties in a home-away series?

    Yes they are, they are winning the series by the rules set forward.

    No, it's the team that shows more initiative on the road.

    In soccer leagues around the world, teams win 60%+ of their home games based on the information in the book I'm reading (higher than any other sport), in MLS it's almost 70% since 2002. So the stats would say the vast majority of teams are better at home.

    Actually it is, because in your example there's no chance for the team that loses that first one to come back. In the away goal rule if a team allows an away goal they know exactly what they need to do in the second leg to go though.

    They are using their skill... I'd rather have the away goal rule than PKs.
     
  20. vividox

    vividox Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 10, 2005
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

    This is not an original idea, but my favorite tie breaking idea is:

    1) After full time, play a penalty kick shootout
    2) The team that wins the penalty kick shootout is awarded 1/2 goal
    3) Play two 15 minute halves
    4) Declare winner
     
  21. Buzz Killington

    Buzz Killington Member+

    Oct 6, 2002
    Lee's Summit
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

    Half goals? no thank you.
     
  22. vividox

    vividox Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 10, 2005
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

    Fine, if you're not smart enough for fractions, award the winner of the PKs 1 goal and then every goal from then on is worth 2. Same concept.

    I love the idea though. The PKs give a marginal lead to one team, but it doesn't decide the game. If the other team scores a goal in the next 30 minutes, they still win the game because a goal in regular time is worth a lot more than PKs.
     
  23. vividox

    vividox Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 10, 2005
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

    No, I take it back, 1 goal for PK winning and 2 goals in stoppage time is dumb. It just needs to be 1/2 for winning the PKs. Then if the ending score is 2-2.5, you know at a glance there were 4 goals scored during the run of play, and that it went to overtime.
     
  24. Felixx219

    Felixx219 BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 8, 2004
    Kansas City, MO
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

    I'm sure it has happened but I am not going to research weather conditions to prove out. It could definitely happen here with a playoff game played in the north and then one played in the south.

    So, take weather out of the equation, we all know that games are play in different fashions. Some are tight defensive affairs and others are very open, fast paced, high scoring affairs. The team that wins one isnt superior over the team that wins the other nor is a team that scores more goals on the road.

    It all comes down to my primary point - a goal is a goal. It doesnt matter how or where it is scored.

    That's a good question. One would be a neutral site 3rd game or a 3rd game at home for the higher seed. I've never been a fan of the aggregate to begin with.

    same amount of wins, same amount of goals. The rules in this specific situation don't declare a proper winner.

    Score more goals, win the game. Isnt that the sport we love?

    Yes, but I dont think that is worth a win. Especially when it is determining who advances in a tournament.

    On top of that, just because you've scored more goals doesnt mean you've shown more initiative. Even if a team does do that, I dont think it is more valuable than a team that shows more initiative at home or any other place. A goal is a goal and who scores more at which place is unimportant or at least it should be.

    That's a good statistic but it still isnt the case all the time and that doesnt make this tie-breaking method okay.

    You make a good point but I was trying to come up with a ridiculous example to show that the away goals rule is just as ridiculous as something like that to me.

    But, they are showing an equal amount of skill. Both teams are scoring the same amount of goals. At least in a PK situation, one team is scoring more than another team.

    The winner of a soccer game and how a winner is determined is which team scores the most goals. That is what makes soccer/football the sport that it is. The away goals rule takes the sport and makes games played under the rules a different sport. They are certain rules of games that can be altered for playoffs or other situations and not impact the integrity of the sport. Making some goals worth more than others is not one of those rules.

    When the NPSL came to Kansas City in 1991, a lot of people (specifically purist who were use to the European game) bashed the multi-point system. While they are different, the spirit is the same. It is basically saying that some goals are worth more than others and that is the issue I have with it.

    I just cannot even explain how much I hate this rule. But, I think I've conveyed it through my post. :D

    We will have to agree to disagree. If the MLS ever implemented this rule, I would be heart broken.

    Seeing a team advance using this rule makes me feel like I have watched a movie and never got to see the resolution. Everton lost a series a couple of years ago using this and it made me feel like I had been robbed.

    It is just inconceivable to me that this has been accepted by fans. It is baffling that anyone who loves this sport can think this is an okay way to declare a winner.
     
  25. Buzz Killington

    Buzz Killington Member+

    Oct 6, 2002
    Lee's Summit
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: MLS 2011 Non-Sporting Discussion [R]

    Smart enough? Seriously? No it's not that at all. It's because I like most sports fans all over the world like round numbers, no fraction shit.

    And on top of that you piss off the people that hate PKs just as much if not more. Horrible idea.
     

Share This Page