MLS-NASL Partnership Critical for Youth Development

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by Real Corona, Oct 21, 2012.

  1. Balerion

    Balerion Member+

    Aug 5, 2006
    Roslindale, MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Obviously, the only reason Holden is more than a PDL-level player is because of his stint at Sunderland.
     
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  2. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Stu has gotten more out of MLS than most USMNT players but let's not make him the second coming of Günther Netzer yet.

    And, of course, the overall point still stands. MLS just doesn't produce a reasonable number of the Top 9 (if you count Ukraine, Russia and the Netherlands) league quality pros.
     
  3. youth=glory

    youth=glory Member

    Sep 2, 2010
    Debating with SFS is like running in a circle....just new BS left and right....

    If Holden is Euro trained, doesn't that mean that Rossi is American trained??
     
  4. Real Corona

    Real Corona Member+

    Jan 19, 2008
    Colorado
    Club:
    FC Metalist Kharkiv
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    .....and the point of this thread is discussing how to improve that. I'd suggest you start adding to that conversation.
     
  5. Balerion

    Balerion Member+

    Aug 5, 2006
    Roslindale, MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seriously, though. SFS has claimed that MLS has crappy coaching and it follows that the NASL also has crappy coaching. That may well be true; at the very least, it's crappy compared to some of the top leagues in the world. Nonetheless, most HG players and young Americans are left with little choice but to enter into this woeful, misbegotten world.

    If we accept all this to be true, what is the problem with the lower-division loans, then?

    Option 1:
    MLS -- crappy coaching, no playing time

    Option 2:
    NASL -- crappy coaching, playing time


    I don't think anybody is going to hold up the NASL as a shining example of world-class development. However, given the options available to the sort of player in question, it's not a bad choice.


    We can now return to discussion the hypothetical transfer valuations of Eastern European players.
     
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  6. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    When it comes to relatively mature players like the ones you've listed, I think your examples hold a lot of sway. And let's not forget this year's big loan success story Bright Dike.

    But what if the goal is to get some game time for the younger crowd, such as Marky Delgado, Jack McBean, Zach Pfeffer, Kellyn Acosta, and Kellen Gulley? Seems like we don't have many positive examples of that happening.
     
  7. Real Corona

    Real Corona Member+

    Jan 19, 2008
    Colorado
    Club:
    FC Metalist Kharkiv
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Have we historically even had many players that young in MLS? Up until the recent rule changes and such most kids simply went to college during their 18-23 years and then if they were good enough signed with MLS. Now we actually are trying to create something for those guys; the 18-23 group. The question is what do we create for them?
     
  8. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    Depends how many you consider "many."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Adidas

    At the start of the 2000s, MLS began signing a few teenagers per year, mostly 17 year olds from Bradenton. Lots of prominent national teamers came up through that route, getting good minutes along the way. More recently, though, that route has dried up.

    Donovan, Beasley, Convey, Eddie Johnson, Adu, Eddie Gaven, Michael Bradley, Jozy Altidore.
     
  9. Real Corona

    Real Corona Member+

    Jan 19, 2008
    Colorado
    Club:
    FC Metalist Kharkiv
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why?
     
  10. ielag

    ielag Member+

    Jul 20, 2010
    I think some of it is how much money Adidas has allocated to the GA program, but MLS has also been turned down by their last 3 Bradenton contract offers (Pelosi, Guido, Flores). Then we've also had some go the HG route like Agudelo, Acosta, McBean

    Also, straight from Bradenton signees have always been every 2 years with the U-17 WC cycle. In 2010, had McInenery, Gil, and Herold. 2008 was Shea, Lambo, and Nimo. The 2011 GA class featured 5 teenagers though.

    This also opens up to the whole dumb non-senior college players who don't sign GA ineligible for the Super/Supplemental Draft rule.
     
  11. Balerion

    Balerion Member+

    Aug 5, 2006
    Roslindale, MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The players who are this young are saved somewhat by their continued eligibility for the DA. They could certainly use more games at a higher, more competitive level, but at least DA+reserve league gives them a relatively regular set of games. In 2011, Diego Fagundez managed to play at the U16, U18, reserve, and MLS level.
     
  12. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    That's a good point, although it still leaves a large hole between the loanees and the players who are served reasonably well by the DA.

    born in 1995 and younger - ok for DA
    born in 1994 - technically eligible for DA, but ...
    born in 1993 - not eligible for DA
    born in 1992 - not eligible for DA
    born in 1991 and older - players who had successful loans this year

    I'm skeptical about the value of the DA for MLS 94s. They're older and vastly more talented than most U18 DA kids, who won't ever become good college players. Among 94s, McBean has been playing DA (5 goals in 4 appearances), whereas Gulley and Sanchez have not. Don't know if there's a story behind that for either of them.
     
  13. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    In Bradenton's first few cycles, it was turning out players with significantly more raw talent than the available senior players. At the same time, MLS was struggling all too happy to run out some exciting young prospects, especially if they weren't expensive.

    For a variety of reasons, both of these things have changed. In particular, MLS can afford better foreigners now, and has raised its roster limits. Unfortunately, I also think it's clear that Bradenton has failed to make much progress.
     
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  14. Balerion

    Balerion Member+

    Aug 5, 2006
    Roslindale, MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For 92s, I think the issue isn't that they can't have a good loan experience, it's that they didn't have enough opportunity. Witness posters like Clint Eastwood regularly getting down on their hands and knees, begging Dallas to send guys like Victor Ulloa and Ruben Luna on loan.

    I agree that the 93s and especially 94s have a problem. I think for the most part, the only temporary solution is to sign only the most talented players who are capable of playing quickly (Gil, Villarreal) and letting the rest play a year or two of college.
     
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  15. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    There are other strategies the USSF could take. One that comes up here fairly often is the young player rule. If NASL and USL teams are required to field U20s for a certain number of minutes, they'll become a lot more enthusiastic about young loanees.
     
  16. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I think it's more perception than reality to be honest.

    Since 2010 MLS has signed 13 teenagers to GenAd deals. (Bunbury-19, Gil-16, Herold-17, McInerney-17, Mwanga-18, Okugo-18, Kitchen-18, MacMath-19, Salgado-17, Sarkodie-19, Valentin-19, Baptiste-19, Polak-19, etc.). A healthy percentage of those kids have gotten playing time and have been successful.

    And if you add the homegrown teenagers to that the number bulges even more. The problem isn't signing teenage/young players, the problem is getting them playing time. [And as people have mentioned, contract offers were made to more teenagers than were signed. Guido, Pelosi, Flores got offers. ChivasUSA wanted Stevie Rodriguez, etc.]

    Part of the issue is there's no incentive for clubs to develop these players. How many minutes in 2012 did the Supporter's Shield winner (San Jose) give to homegrown and USMNT-eligible teenagers? I believe the answer is exactly zero.

    Everybody with 3 brain cells understands that the NASL has inferior coaching, facilities, etc. at the moment. [Although it's better than it used to be. When I was going to the A-league Syracuse Salty Dogs games in New York the players would routinely trip over the pitching mound!!] With a closer relationship between MLS and the NASL, hopefully the quality of that 2nd division will improve over the years.

    And you know what? The NASL should also become a developmental league for coaching. Once in a while we see an NASL coach make the move to MLS, but it's not exactly common. And I don't just mean head coaches, but assistant coaches, youth coaches, etc.

    It's time we get a real 2nd division in this country. There used to be a time when a good number of NASL/USL owners thought they were competing with MLS to be the top division. Those days are long, long gone. It's time they embrace their 2nd division status, and develop a close relationship with MLS. And there will be a financial incentive for them to do so. I imagine that when young players are sent down to the 2nd division, their salaries will be taken care of by MLS. So they essentially can stock their rosters with good, cheap, talent. And I do expect that a quota on the number of young players will be implemented. If not, what's the point? NASL teams will still want to do everything they can to win. There are plenty of MLS veterans out there looking for work. Take a look at the Scorpions roster. It's heavily influence by former MLS players.
     
  17. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    Those 13 players combined have had a total of one season as a teenage starter (Kitchen as a 19-year-old). Or perhaps two if you want to stretch and count Gil as a part-time starter this year. But most of them barely played at all before age 20.

    Vastly different from the days when the New York Red Bulls alone had three teenage starters.

    Inferior facilities, yes, but frankly, I'd take Colin Clarke or Manny Lagos over several MLS coaches.
     
  18. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Great post!! I agree completely!

    I think MLS too should have some form of 'rule' to get their younger players PT, I think mexico does something similar... correct me if I am wrong!

    I too hope we have a GOOD second division, that will give MLS healthy competition.
     
  19. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Mexico does...............

    But let's remember that a team like Chivas has layer upon layer upon layer of youth and reserve teams. I think they have Chivas Rayadas in the 2nd division, another 4th division team, a U20 team, and a U17 team.

    In other words, by the time a kid goes to the first team............they've been vetted and they're ready. For every kid that makes it with a Mexican first team, there's an army of them that never make it past the 4th division or 2nd division team. We have to remember that to we have to expect a healthy percentage of "failures." That occurs whether we're in the US, Argentina, or Holland.

    Some USYNT fans seem to expect an MLS coaches to sign/draft a 17-18 year old and throw them right into the fire. As MLS improves over the years, the chances of that actually decrease and decrease. MLS coaches will continue to be able to sign better and better foreign talent that's superior to a newly signed 17/18 year old.

    That's why it's ESSENTIAL that we have either a real reserve team or a real 2nd division working closely with MLS. These kids can therefore show their worth, not just to the team they're playing with................but other teams looking for talent as well. Perhaps a player like Victor Ulloa is never gonna get a chance with FCD because they're loaded in central midfield. However, there might be another club really wanting to scout Victor Ulloa right now. Where are they going to see him?
     
  20. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    The chances of a teenager contributing shouldn't drop that much. Look at Mexico. Far superior to MLS and plenty of teenagers getting first-team minutes.

    If we do a decent job of preparing our youngsters, there's no reason we can't do the same.
     
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  21. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Don't disagree with anythign you wrote.

    But I sitll don't think Mexico is AS far away as you put it, as far as us matching them in ability to put out good youth teams.

    If they, a level higher than MLS, can still field many good teams with many good youngsters, giving them minutes, and or having good young players contributing to the team overall... why can't MLS teams do the same?
    Disagree here. While I am not saying that it should be that young... I would love to see a kid who's 20-21 coming from our 'cantera' and contributing. That's about hte right age... but at the same time who's to say the kid can't be 16-17 like Najar?
    Don't disagree here either! I agree, some guys may not be ready to contribute to the first team, but getting NASL minutes like Conor Shanosky(sp) who has kicked butt in the NASL, can find minutes and professional exposure too!
     
  22. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Exactly what I'm saying. Those Mexican kids have an oppurtunity in a real reserve division and lower division systems.................that they're ready for 1st team minutes.

    MLS coaches are handed a 17 year old that's never played at a level higher than the development academy (or a couple of reserve games), and are expected to use them? Believe it or not, Schellas Hyndman isn't a youth development expert. It takes a while for a kid to prove his worth, and we don't have a good avenue for them to do that.

    That's why this possible MLS/NASL is good, even though I have little faith in today's NASL as a developmental league. Serious changes will have to be made, and the owners of that league will have to be on board.
     
  23. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    This is my concern. NASL Loans or partnerships or players playing on NASL teams doesn't solve the issues you raise. 1-Doesn't MLS want to train those players to their liking, on their teams, in their working environment, they way they play with their coaches. NASL doesn't deal with that.
    2-Caplitism dictates NASL doesn't have the critical mass nor the revenue streams to hire quality youth coaches. Just because they play NASL doesn't mean that is quality enough. I've seen NASL and right now I don't want any youth player learning to play like that.
    3-NASL partnership doesn't address the fact that some very talented youth who quite aren't ready to play vs adults still need development. Is that MLS2 -is that a new U21 league -is that a reserve league. What form does that take and who coaches it and administers it. This whole NASL partnership discussion still doesn't address the significant development gaps prior to a player every getting to that point. I think we're putting the cart before the horse. We still need MLS and USSF to partner to fix the progression and scouting and signing and recruiting of players from Academy to MLS, and then address how those benefits fit into the next MLS development structure. We need to address Pay to play so we know the top players are in this pyramid. We need to address roster spots and youth aquisition budgets, and restrictive rules to allow more and better youth players to get into this professional development pyramid. In my mind we need to address all this before we waste time and effort developing a NASL loan partnership because we have no quality players to take part in the partnership. All this before the fact the player is now possibly ready to play for NASL or not. No one has outlined what an ideal development progression pyramid should look like in this country-from Club to Academy to Youth Professional to reserve team to loan partnerships to first team. No one has made the ease of progression their priority. In fact there is none. I would love to help write a white paper on the topic.
     
  24. morange92

    morange92 Member+

    Jan 30, 2012
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    I agree for the most part. In general though we also have to assume a partnership with the NASL won't be the only move we make in regards into making a dp pyramid that makes sense. Eventually MLS will have to look at the USL, PDL, NPSL, etc as well and see if they can also incorporate them into all of this.

    Also if an NASL team were to affiliate themselves with an MLS team the same way a MiLB team affiliates themselves with a MLB team, then the MLS should have plenty of say in how their players play (seeing as the MLS would be the ones hiring the players and coaches while the NASL team would be handling the travel and other operational expenses). I don't see that really being a big issue unless the NASL team makes it one. So i don't imagine 1) being a real fundamental issue if that's the direction we go.

    For 2) i agree, though again if they affiliate MLS would be handling that, not the NASL.

    3) i kind of addressed at the beginning, but you have to start somewhere, i'd rather have somewhere for the players to go between the academy and the MLS squad. Obviously we would need more, but it is a starting point.
     
  25. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    I hope you're right. If they are true affliliates in every sense of the work I'm hoping MLS will direct development. Is there any benefit to MLS buying out NASL or USL? MLS2. They will secure control for development, they can develop smaller city markets for their teams with inherent appeal and develop the game to the next level. Harrisburg for Philadelphia, Pittsburgh for Columbus Richmond for DC, San Antonio for Houston, Austin for FCDallas. I like the NASL affiliation idea but would also love to see it taken to the next level with Non MLS DA's and clubs in an area affiliate with MLS DA's similar to Philly's. I just think it will open training, scouting, and trialing opportunities over longer distances to more players. I want every quality player in a large region around an MLS team to be known and professionally evaluated. A regional DMN list if you will.
     
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