Well MLS has struggled mighty to establish its own brand power and build franchises from scratch, if you look at the last several expansions in MLS they have had success with co-opting existing lower division clubs that already had a built in fanbase, infrastructure, history, marketing dep, etc. Portland Vancouver Seattle Montreal Philly Of those 5 teams only Philly was built from scratch, and while not a bust it hasnt reached the relevance of the other 4. Even recently they announced two new franchises. Orlando City which is from an existing lower division and was greated with much applause and celebration and excitement....and NYCFC which didn't have a single fan at the annoucnement, no party, no life at all (and will be a massive bust). To me i think MLS in many ways needs the NASL, to be the league that can extend and grow the sport and passion for the domestic product of the sport in places they can't penetrate. MLS cant connect nationally because they are to thin and most soccer fans are MILES away from any meaningful local soccer. A small tiny weak second division doesn t inspire fans to invest in the domestic game, so they will continue to follow bigger leagues outside the USA and because they have no loyalty to MLS ot local sides they will mostly ignore the domestic game. (see ratings nationally for MLS games..no one is watching outside the home markets). IF NASL can get to a point where it has several teams, financially stable, and increased drawing power it is only good for MLS. It means that more people are invested in the local game, more young players are seeing pro soccer as a financial option, and more fans will begin to feel they are supporting a pro soccer team, not a "minor league venture". Then again, MLS could cut off its nose to spite its face and try and capture those successful MLS markets, which could stunt or kill any chance at a strong second division..then they are back to where they started except with more disenfranchised soccer fans who will harbor resentment to MLS and look abroad to satisfy their soccer fix. As for pro/rel....if NASL can be successful, even if not as successful as MLS, at some point it makes sense to discuss at a serious level at USSF where there adopting some limited form of mobility between divisions is feasible and good overall for the game in the USA. Frankly i can't see two decent leagues existing in the USA if they dont integrate in some fashion under USSF...it either going to be a combined progression or a reversion to one league and with that a crippling of growth for the game.
Well why would NASL want to be an organized farm league system for MLS? What possible benefit is there for NASL in that scenario. If that was all they could get they might as well have closed up shop and gone home.
After disagreeing strongly with back to back statements, I stopped reading. NYCFC may be a massive bust, but it also may be the shining star. Anyone that purports to know right now is making shit up. MLS needs NASL like a fish needs a bicycle.
Right now they don't seem to have a clue though. They go to AO events and give out tshirts and tell people they should be talking about NYCFC at US National Team games so it shows they don't understand much. You tell them the issue with them doing that and they respond with, "Its a free country we can promote where we want", remember this is in a bar. Tone deaf and clueless doesn't begin to describe them. I just hope they continue promoting their ties to Man City, no better way to alienate 95% of New York soccer fans..
I am not sure that is the context, maybe it was as you said. But nothing wrong with the League promoting MLS/ NYMancityyankees at a USA game, I know NASL has done it at International games in Miami / Atlanta. I do agree that if the NY club is seem as an extention of Man City, they could turn into a Chivas USA 2.0 (maybe not as bad, but some of the same issues). Then again, if Barcelona bought the Fire and invested on good players (would love Jona 2Santos here) I would be cool with being the Chicago Barca (but yes, my real Madrid fans friends would not be happy).
Evidence points to NYCFC being a massive bust, if you think otherwise you are just being hopeful. MLS needs the domestic game to have stronger appeal at all levels and in as many places as possible. In case you were to busy taking pictures that no one cares about to notice, MLS isn't exactly killing it in national appeal. They have some great markets but on the whole MLS is about as relevant as the WNBA. Meanwhile interest in the sport outside MLS is rising significantly every year. While the overall interest in the sport is getting bigger, interest in MLS is remaining stagnant. IMO part of that is their business model that is outdated and the other being that most the country just isn't invested in the domestic product. A successful NASL could actually help MLS gain more penetration for the domestic game in several different markets. More quality soccer markets across all levels is good for everyone. a single MLS monopoly trying to be the NFL without the world's best talent and killing lower division clubs isn't a great recipe for success. MLS may not "need" NASL....but they certainly have something to gain by having a strong and viable NASL helping to grow the domestic game in the USA.
Man you are starting to sound like those Obamacare hatters that keep calling it a bust right away and not waiting for a few years to see if it does fail or succeed. True, Barcelona is the shit maybe that is damning.
I live in NYC, have for 10 years and have a very good hear to the ground on the local soccer scene. several bars I have been too that support soccer want nothing to do with NYCFC, the fans i run into find the idea of following Manchester city MLS team a joke (even the Man City fans), there is no buzz at all surrounding NYCFC, no fan movement...nothing. Anyone that would have been interested was able to see right through the announcement at the start that this is simply a Man City brand extension project. I was at two pubs where their new marketing team came in with merch and in both cases the owner of the bar rounded all it up and trashed it to the delight of the patrons in the bar. I want to know what planet you are living on if you think for a moment that the Man City USA experiment is going well. Will they get people to go to games? Probably. Will the get enough to make the rest of us feel they are a moderate success? No. They will appeal to people with no affiliation to local soccer that just want to associate themselves with a known brand and maybe see top players...then when they realize they are not actually going to see Man City stars...they will fade. If NYC fans wanted to follow an team that is an advertisement for a product other than the local soccer team...Red Bull Arena would be overflowing with fans every weekend. It will fail, and I can help make it fail even faster...all the better.
Almost a year and a half before they kick a ball in anger. There's no logo, no team colors. They have a sporting director and a head coach. That's all. Frankly, there's no real evidence one way or the other. Anyone finding "evidence" either way has an agenda. Yeah, some of the Man City stuff is a bit heavy handed and has been a mis-step - but this far out from launch, it shouldn't have any lasting repercussions.
Do i want it to fail? Of course I do...its an insult to New York City itself (a misstep MLS has made TWICE now). I have even had people within MLS tell me they feel it is going to end badly as well. Sheik whatshisname didn't just spend all this blood oil money to simply have a regular old MLS franchise...he spent it to further his primary investment in the sport so there is no way in hell he is going to not associate this club in this market in this country with Manchester City FC. That is the brand that needs the exposure in the global game to compete with the major brands in world soccer.
Well I think "blood oil money" does have something to do with NASL. But hey maybe it is just a NYC thing. I guess one sheiks blood oil money is better than the other sheiks blood oil money.
Dead on for both comments. If you have nothing to add to this conversation, please go discuss your off-topic items in more appropriate forums.
Well, it seems the USL Pro folks are leveraging the affiliation with MLS to help them expand. Mind you, I don't think some will succeed long term. Now, IMO USL Pro is expanding without proper vetting. The USSF D2 standards for ownership probably slows down the expansion process for the NASL. And I still think the NASL would "potentially" be able to find a few more $20 millionaires who might want to risk losing money on soccer with some form of affiliation with MLS. Disagree with that idea? Finally, I don't know where I said farm system....I said affiliation, as in a defined business relationship. I think the NASL would benefit from a defined business relationship with MLS, not as an organized farm system. The NASL affiliation would not need to be the same as the USL Pro affiliation either. I didn't explicitly state that in my previous post so I can see how you could assume I meant the same affiliation.
In all fairness to the Union they are the only club of that group that has all 4 of the big 4 sports leaguesMLB, NHL, NFL, and NBA. Portland has just the NBA Blazers so the Tinbers are #2 on the pro sports list Vancouver has NHL and CFL. A metro the size of Vancouver can support 3 pro sports very easily Seattle has recently lost its NBA franchise so the Sounders have filled a whole nicely to got with the NFL and MLB Montreal like most Canadian Cities NHL and CFL so MLS is a nice fit I will tell youi though that the Union does have its support for sure and a perfect location for PPL park outside of the city. With great access to suburban soccer hot spots. 476 connects PPL Park to the Main line, 322 and Barry Bridge from NJ, 95 coming from Delaware
The MLS cannot make the same mistake the NHL did by over expaning into markets that will not or cannot support a soccer club. Although the US/Canada soccer model is foreign to foreigner soccer fans dow not mean it will not work. DI MLS with a Minor League USL pro affiliate is somethng that the sports fans in North America can understand. An independent second divison league the NASL will be able to fill those mrkets that do not have an MLS franchise. There are only so many roster spots in the MLS so as players come through the academies of the MLS and from the NCAA for sure there will be many who slip through the cracks and the NASL will provide a domestic league to land. At this point those players are ither going to another country or perhaps just giving up on a pro soccer career. NASL also has the ability to scout the Concacaf Countries in central America and offer them a chance to come to the US to live and play pro soccer. Where as MLS clubs are limited to internationals they ned to look to choose much more carefully and Central America countries are proably not the first place they will be looking for foreign talent. Division 1, 2, 3, and 4(PDL amatuer) The more availble roster spots available the more players can be developed As for cooperation and loans between MLS and NASL clubs that will most likley be by a team to team basis. Right now for example Vacouver and EDM have a good working relationship. Will that coninue when Vancouver gets a USL Pro affilate? Or will Edmonton see a better oppuritunity to continue their relationship with VAN and possibily move to the USL pro
You are a very powerful man. Please also use your powers to have the Cosmos enter MLS one day in place of NYCFC. I agree this stinks like another Chivas USA, Capetown Ajax brand extension. For some reason with NYRB at least is not so bad as the MLS team seems to be the one with more international name recognition.
How long do you guys think the current state of affairs will last in which NASL and MLS do not cooperate and NASL and USLPro are at odds with each other? Sooner or later something will give and for right now I do not see NASL succeeding. Any NASL team other than Cosmos who end up with a high fan base will aspire to one day join MLS, I doubt they will remain in NASL. Even the Cosmos IMHO would join MLS if the conditions are right.
The right conditions for the Cosmos would require the end of the MLS single entity system. Which, in my opinion, also answers your question about how long the non-cooperation will last.
Im not calling the Union franchise a failure, simply pointing out compared to the other recent expansions they have not achieved the same out of the box success off the field. We can disagree as to why, but to me it is clearly due to the fact the other 4 teams all where existing lower division sides with history and infrastructure first. Toronto FC was MLS's really only hugely successful launch in the last 10 years that was based purely on their brand alone.
Taking NJ out of the equation, im confident that if you asked random soccer fans to rank based on favorability the three teams, the Cosmos would easily finish top. The challenge for them isnt brand recognition or strength, its convincing all those people that view them favorably to invest their time and energy in supporting them as a NASL side. I think they are doing a fairly good job under the circumstances, and frankly if this was just a NASL expansion team not the Cosmos it wouldn't get 1500 fans a game. They need to grow their club correctly, sign players smartly not just for pandering and position themselves as a club that can play on equal footing with its peers in the USA. From there who knows. Man City USA on the other hand is going to be a soulless enterprise and will burn out quickly. There just isn't any authentic support for that venture, they will live off pandering signings and gimmicks.
USL Pro is really setting themselves up to be the new MLS reserve league, which is fine...but its not ever going to propel USL Pro on its own to any real relevance beyond that. They are not looking to be a major pro soccer league, which is why a lot of them passed on NASL and D2 sanctioning a couple years ago with the split. They have different motivations and interests. NASL is going to have to be the pro league for non-MLS markets and select alternative in current MLS markets. Which ultimately is good for the game in the USA. Their biggest challenge to me isnt going to be finding teams and putting good teams and fans in the seats..its going to be warding off MLS from cherry picking their most successful franchises.
There are some good points and maybe in the future a decade from now if the MLS looks for another expansion they may look to cities with NASL clubs that currently have the population and a connection to having also having one two three or even all four of the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB that they are able to support with the population they have For example and Indy team which also has a NFL and NBA franchise. MINN NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL. Than you have your San Antonio's, OKC's which currently have just NBA franchises and could support a summer sport in MLS Similar to what has happend in Salt lake City and now in Orlando With NBA and MLS playing in opposite seasons on the calender with some cross over. Atlanta Failing as a NHL city but adding a 4th sport at its highest level MLS to go with NBA, MLB, and NFL Tampa Bay probably not so much with NFL and MLB. jacksonville struggling with its NFL franchise would the MLS target such a city or would it be best served by the NASL