MLS Cup 2012 - PETRESCU [R]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by whiteball, Nov 19, 2012.

  1. equus

    equus Member

    Jan 6, 2007
    I'm not a ref, but what I noticed was he seemed to balance out the no-call physical play with a quick whistle on fouls here and there to keep the emotions in check. Geiger, IMO, tends to let physical play go early until the teams are in full rage and then he has difficulty trying to rein them in.

    /stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night :)
     
  2. tog

    tog Member

    Oct 25, 2000
    Seattle
    I finally just got to see the game (was working all day Saturday). I think it really was just becauseit would have taken many minutes to get a new keeper in place and there were about 30 seconds left. Doesn't really make any sense.
     
  3. tog

    tog Member

    Oct 25, 2000
    Seattle
    He was clearly behind the ball and it appeared on replay behind the 2LD (although the angle was bad on the replay, the mower lines confirm this).
     
  4. tog

    tog Member

    Oct 25, 2000
    Seattle
    I'm struggling with this one, but this is where I currently stand:

    I think Clark's hand was in a perfectly natural position and that it didn't move relative to his body. However, he is clearly moving his entire body to the side that the ball is shot to in an effort to block the ball. So, although his arm was stationary relative to his body, by moving his entire body (including his arm) toward the ball, he has demonstrated deliberatness. He is, essentially, making a play on the ball. So, I'm OK with the call. Had he been standing still with his arm in the same position, I would argue against the call.
     
  5. The Stever

    The Stever Member

    Dec 4, 2003
    In other words, Ricardo Clark is a professional athlete how knew full well that, by positioning his arms where he did, he managed to MAKE HIMSELF BIGGER and therefore was guilty of intentionally handling the ball... as evidenced by the 1.7 second mandatory reaction by the Dynamo when the call was correctly made.
     
  6. aek chicago

    aek chicago Member

    Sep 17, 2004
    ^^^^^
    Thank you Steve.

    For Gods sake, THANK YOU!
     
    The Stever repped this.
  7. tog

    tog Member

    Oct 25, 2000
    Seattle
    Actually, that's pretty much the opposite of what I'm saying.

    I'm saying that his size in this instance isn't the issue. It's the fact that he is making a deliberate play on the ball. He is moving to block the ball: he has had time to react to the ball and the reaction was to move to block the ball. In doing so, he blocked it with his arm.

    If he had remained the same "size" and had been stationary, tried to avoid the ball, or simply not had time to react and his hand was in that position, it is not a handled ball, in my view. It is his deliberate motion into the path of the ball that makes it handling and not his "size."
     
  8. The Stever

    The Stever Member

    Dec 4, 2003
    Your turn...
     
  9. NC Soccer United

    NC Soccer United BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jan 25, 2011
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    What part of higher degrees of cynicism in higher level soccer don't people understand? A lot of us like to use "what would U14 do in this situation" when MLS and U14 are miles apart in cynicism. These MLS/College/ U16 DA Boys/ U15 ECNL Girls players know a subtle movement of the arm is just enough block a shot heading toward the goal area. It is all relative to the degree of competition that subtle making yourself bigger tactic is quite the norm in the higher levels. Ricardo Clark damn well knew what he was doing in this case.
     
    sjt8184 repped this.
  10. aek chicago

    aek chicago Member

    Sep 17, 2004
    I'll pass....too much quality on this thread for me to compete with.

    Hopefully I'll see you soon.
     
  11. iron81

    iron81 Member+

    Jan 6, 2011
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
  12. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    I sincerely hope nobody follows the advice given here and in many other posts by the same person. The fact is that if you do not apply TLOG properly on your way up, you will not pass the assessments required to advance. More than one National Assessor has expressed this viewpoint to me and others.
    Tamberino exemplified much of what was wrong with MLS officiating back in those days. And he was a major contributor to the problems when he was in charge in Chicago. This all led eventually to the appointment of an outside person to head up the PRO refereeing in the US and Canada. (BTW his 4 MLS finals included one as AR in the first year when there was essentially very little competition, and 2 as 4th official.) So his advice should be taken cautiously, if at all. He is seemingly not involved at all in US Soccer and MLS these days. Ever wonder why? And now the officiating in the league has shown marked improvement.
    All of the top referees that most people name were very strict (i.e. technical) when they were coming up, and then after being established for a while were able to go more to the practical side, (so-called man-management) when players had respect for them.
    Tom Bobadilla did not originate the"fingerspitzengefuhl" concept. It came from a German visiting instructor at the National Camp a few years ago. Its real meaning is total awareness of the entire situation, not, as is implied here, choosing to take an alternative decision. Originally a military concept for commanders in battle. (And nothing to do with eating fried chicken.)

    To get back on topic, as for the MLS Cup match, I thought Petrescu did OK, not brilliantly. He was somewhat better than in the league match between the same two teams but that is not saying that much as that was a really weak performance. He wasted a card on Donovan at the throw-in, it did no good at all. I will give him the benefit of the call on the non-DOGSO, but it is clear he doesn't like to give them. In the league match he failed to give one to Houston in a much more obvious situation. Last, making Beckham hurry off and preventing a teammate from congratulating him was downright ridiculous considering the occasion. The fans bought their tickets to see Beckham and give him his deserved ovation. Petrescu could easily have added more time. (Fingerspitzengefuhl??)

    PH
     
    tog and billf repped this.
  13. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    If you want ACC games then you need to follow Tambo's advice. As PH said, Tamberino was a microcosm of what was wrong with MLS officiating in the early days. That's why Brian Hall was brought in to be in charge of MLS refs. Once referees started giving cards and actually sending players off, there became a huge backlash because no one saw that before.
     
  14. aek chicago

    aek chicago Member

    Sep 17, 2004
    Right.

    Thanks.

    Unfortunately for you, Tambo isn't the only one with similar advice (including several national assessors and current MLS/FIFA referees). You keep trying to pass assesments and I'll keep listening to those who have been there and done that. I know its made me a much better referee, but hey, whatever floats YOUR boat. Just look at who's repping my posts.....at least one guy who has reffed at a much higher level than anyone else on these threads, GUARANTEED!

    While I'm not an advocate of tamberino's style per se, and we even had a disagreement during said seminar over a certain approach in a certain situation, nonetheless I will take his advice (and the advice of those much more imminently qualified to officiate at the pro level) over that of some anonymous trolls on an internet forum.

    I also know full well where the German term originated and how its used in a soccer context. To think a Hispanic referee from SoCal originated the term would border on ludicrous. But then again, par for the course here. Reading, however, IS a skill.

    The most ironic of all though is the guy who advocates by the book technical refereeing derides petrescu for hurrying beckham off the pitch because .....the fans paid to see BECKHAM.....the very epitome of practical refereeing. Almost identical to an incident we discussed with tambo. Ref in context. In the pros, the fans are there to see beckham, the home side, etc......
     
  15. aek chicago

    aek chicago Member

    Sep 17, 2004
    Not exactly.

    The ACC has a different set of "requirements" than the MLS.

    (This exact topic was also covered in his seminar).

    Ref in context.
     
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'll let Pierre Head respond to the rest of your post if he so chooses, but...
    I'm willing to guarantee that this statement is wrong. I won't question the bona fides of whomever is repping your posts (not that that should be a standard to assess an argument, but that's beside the point). All I'll say is what I've said in the past--there are more MLS, former MLS and even a few former FIFA referees that lurk and sometimes post on this board than one may think. You might even pause for a moment and contemplate what level PH officiated at.
     
  17. aek chicago

    aek chicago Member

    Sep 17, 2004
    I have taken that into consideration....thanks!

    I'll also keep in mind that you two work in tandem. Nonetheless, I'm very comfortable with the advice I've received and from whom I've received it. It works for me. Now if you want to go ahead and jump in to dissect everything I post go ahead, just give me an equal opportunity to respond without yieldeingyour almighty moderating power. I'm VERY comfortable in that arena also. Seems like you have a bug up you know where the last few months with me so have at it, you'll get a chance to pull your red card sooner or later.
     
  18. aek chicago

    aek chicago Member

    Sep 17, 2004
    I'm not necessarily disputing everything you're saying, but if Hall was the panacea then why was PRO brought in?
     
  19. aek chicago

    aek chicago Member

    Sep 17, 2004
    Btw, FWIW, I am NOT a proponent of everything Tamberino says, or necessarily a huge fan of the way he reffed, but I DO believe in his insistence on "refereeing in context", and THAT was the thought I was conveying. That doesn't mean make stuff up, or disregard the Laws of the Game, but it DOES mean that when you have some discretion ref IN CONTEXT.
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ah, the joys of moderating.

    Just so you know, I've defended you against complaints on multiple occasions over the past couple years. But the last few months or so, you've definitely escalated your rhetoric and I think the record clearly reflects that. I've got need or desire to sanction you any further. Just keep it slightly toned down. It's not like I--or any other moderators--have a problem with forceful opinions.
     

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