...if you have enough money to meet the requirements of the next league up. MLS just skips forcing a team to win its way up and accepts them if they have the financial requirements met. England forces a team to win, and then only if they also have the financials covered does it admit them (financials in this case largely being stadium requirements).[/quote]
Let's get the facts right here though. WBA isn't really a "newly" promoted club. They've been in the EPL more than they've not been in since 02-03. They've built that club over the course of a decade and this year are having it all come together. Also, if you think the Braves and Twins of that season had the payroll, you're mistaken. They both had a star or two and then had multiple fringe stars (at best) that simply rose to the occasion and had magical seasons all together. Now, Wigan getting promoted and the next year finishing 10th after hovering around the top 5 slots through December is more of what I think you're aiming for. Of course, how's it gone since then ? Right.
Why can't it be set up this way here though? It's just owners rejecting it because they want to still reap the benefits of the top division without fielding a good enough team. Orlando city could certainly be somewhat competitive in the top tear.
Why does it need to be ? Our entire sports business structure evolved in a different manner. One that has proven to be wildly successful for different sports. It has much more than owners simply wanting to reap the benefits of a top division club without fielding a good enough team. It isn't like the most dire of consequences don't exist here (see: relocation, contraction). No, Orlando City could not certainly be somewhat competitive in the top tier over the course of a full season. Absolutely not. Hell, Orlando City isn't even the best club not in the MLS in this country.
If Orlando City was promoted to MLS next season on the back of winning USL-Pro, they would fold within six months because they don't have the infrastructure or finances to survive at that level right now. They would refuse the promotion because they would know what it means. Playing in MLS is not just about players - it's about paying staff. It's having a stadium that can realisatically host those games, and then paying for that stadium. Insurance costs. Everything else that goes with it. The teams in NASL and USL-Pro are in those leagues because *they want to be there*. They have the infrastructure and finances to be able to compete at that level, and no higher. But there's nothing stopping ANY of those teams from joining MLS - providing they have the finances to do it. If some multi-billionaire came into the Pittsburgh Riverhounds office today, bought the team, built a stadium, paid the franchise fee, got sponsors and local media on board, and met all the financial requirements: boom. Pittsburgh could have a team in MLS in 2015. Or Atlanta. Or anywhere, really. It's a simple as that. That's how Seattle, Portland, Montreal and Vancouver "moved up". But, to FORCE a team to move up when they are financially incapable of surviving is suicide. You'd literally be killing the thing you want to support.
Will use the EPL as the example. Friedel and company did not leave American shores just to play in a pro/reg league. They left for better competition and eventually a lot more money. What you can gain from American players who have done this and have had success is invaluable. The pro/rel set up was new to all American players in the EPL, and an eye opener. Brad Guzan is a great example right now. I am sure he is feeling immense pressure to perform as his club is in the relegation zone. Aston Villa is a huge club with a great following and tradition. Guzan is taking every practice session very seriously and this pro/rel battle that he is in is forcing him to concentrate and improve. A $200 million carrot is on the line for the club to stay up in the EPL. If Aston Villa does not stay up it is catastrophic for the club because everything changes financially and there is no guarantee you are going to get promoted the following year because competition is very stiff in the championship. This is why a pro/rel system works. It demands that the players put in maximum work at training and in matches. From a development stand point, you can not ask for any more especially if the consequences are career altering. Look at Cameron Stoke. He will be the first one to tell you how his soccer life on the field has changed. Stoke is far from safe. Cameron has to be very sharp every day in training and very good in matches to keep his place. Stoke as a club main objective is to stay in the EPL. Nothing more. The money is to great for any player coach or fan to feel comfortable that Saturday is just another game. Jeff Cameron will come to the USA National team for the qualifiers more focused and more experienced about playing in games understanding that the result means everything. That is what a pro/rel format provides, accountability. Of course you take players experiences in leagues such as the EPL and gain knowledge from that. A couple of posters on this form think playing in the EPL is no big deal and or playing in the championship is like playing in minor league baseball. How wrong they are. Playing in the EPL is like playing in the NFL or MLB or the NBA or NHL . The difference is glaring though. In the EPL, if a club does not perform and comes in last place there are consequences. In the MLS, if a club does not perform it does not mean anything.
You're still talking about promotion and relegation in conceptual terms. No-one is arguing with you that the leagues in England, Spain, Germany, Italy and wherever benefit from pro/rel, for the very reasons you stated. Everything you said is true - for England, Spain, Germany, and Italy, which have over 100 years of history and rich and dominant football culture that allows for there to be 50-100 strong, established teams existing within a hierarchical structure. However, given everything that has been said about the American soccer environment in terms of the financial and legal realities of life here, how do you expect pro/rel ever to work in the United States where there are less than 20 professional teams capable of competing at a world D1 level, and another 20 or so professional and semi-professional teams which are not?
I understand where you are coming from, I just think you are wrong, and let me explain why. Your view or pro/rel is limited only to the strongest league in the world, with the largest global revenues, that has the oldest clubs in the world, and relegates into the strongest (both financially and probably quality) second division in the world. You are making a statement about ENGLAND you are not making a statement about pro/rel. You are not saying that playing in the relegation zone in Thailand (or pick any other obscure 1st division) will make Guzan and Cameron a better player. You are saying that a player trying to stay in the best league in the world will face pressure, which I agree. But pro/rel isn't the reason because you can't point to players in Thailand becoming increasingly better simply because the league has pro/rel. Soccer is not some magical sport that is different than any other sport. Because you kick a ball instead of throw or run with a ball does not make it immune to criticism. Again I point to basketball. There is pro/rel in European basketball leagues. There are very good players coming out of these leagues, many go to the NBA and one even won MVP. Many players make millions of dollars playing in Euro basketball leagues. These clubs also have youth academies (called cadets) that are exactly like soccer. In fact many soccer clubs have basketball clubs and run the club exactly the same way. And yet all of those best players want to come to the NBA which is a closed system. Hell many of these young guys try to go to our NCAA system because even our colleges are better than these professional teams. The culture created that not the league format. It is HARDER to make it onto an NBA team and win an NBA championship than to do the same in the Euroleague, therefore players need to 'focus' more and get better just as Brad Guzan is having to do now. Not because of the league formats but because the COMPETITION is better. League formats mean nothing really unless you honestly believe that Guzan playing to stay up in EPL or playing to stay up in Thailand means the exact same thing because all pro/rel is the same. If you admit that all pro/rel is not the same, then you can not claim that pro/rel in the US would be like the pro/rel in EPL in any way. And as far as the motivation factor goes, we have guys that make very little money playing professionally. You want to talk about motivation, if our MLS guys who skipped college and went to MLS and is making 50k a year blows out their knee and can't ever play again...then they have to worry about paying their bills. These guys are fighting for their job, they are fighting to be a professional in a sport that didn't even have a 1st division when many of these kids were young. The EPL guys who are making millions a year do not have anywhere near the same pressure than our guys do. If these guys get cut or hurt, then they have to figure out how to keep the lights on. Our minimum contracts have been below the poverty line for years. Do you really think these guys aren't motivated, that they don't care simply because there is no relegation?
Interesting that you keep mentioning Thailand. I coached there in the second division for one season, actually six months. The most interesting time of my life and coaching career. Excellent talent in Thailand but the lack of organization is alarmingly bad. I can tell you that the owner and the club that I was at was only concerned about getting back to the first division. Yes even in Thailand the motivation and pressure or what ever you want to call it was immense. In regard to Euro basketball, I am a Greek American and follow Euro basketball every day, at least some scores and standings. Greece over the years, as of the last 25 years has probably had the most successful club teams in Europe. The National team is not to bad either. The Greek Basketball league does have pro/rel. Overall I do agree with you on Basketball, but it is a little more complicated than that and in regard to the NBA and college basketball. In regard to the young guy's who did not go to college, yes there is motivation for them to improve on a daily basis. It is up to the MLS and the USSF though to provide the competition necessary so these players can improve through competition. If you did not have the foreign influence in the MLS right now the standard of the league would be piss poor. If the Galaxy would only start 11 Americans versus say the Charleston Battery 11 Americans, quite frankly who would win? Ncaa socce rproduces the same type of player over and over. That is the difference between the leagues in America MLS, NASL and USL IS THE QUALITY OF THE FOREIGN PLAYER. MLS obliviously having the better foreigners.I have done scouting for an MLS club and I can tell you that it is a mess. At the end of the day the draft becomes, who knows who. Absolutely, MLS must have financial guide lines, but something must be done for the good of the American game, than you can truly identify the best American players. The pro clubs must become the leaders of player development, not the NCAA.
A bunch of different points here so let me try to break it up. 1. Its awesome that you coached for a bit in D2 Thailand. I think that must have been pretty fun. I wish I could have done the same. I'm not saying there isn't desire to be promoted in any system, the point I was addressing was about Guzan/Cameron. You were suggesting that pro/rel makes players better, I say competition makes players better. I think it would be much harder to make an MLS roster than a Thailand D2 roster thus a player would face better competition and would improve in our closed system vs. their open system. My point is that ultimately competition matters not the system. And since you were using the strongest/most competitive league in the world as your example, it made the comparison to MLS unfair. I wanted to counter that argument with comparing it to a less strong league with pro/rel. 2. There are plenty of Euro basketball leagues with pro/rel (Spain and Italy off the top of my head but there are plenty others). The point is that players choose to league pro/rel system for closed systems (NBA) because of money and competition. The fact that our guys leave our closed system for an open system is not because of the structure it is 100% about the money and quality of play. 3. Galaxy vs. Battery all American line up would be tough to call over 1 game, but over an entire season it would be without the Galaxy who would be far better. Donovan, Buddle, Dunivant, Gonzalez, De La Garza, Franklin, Noonan all have senior NT experience and Donovan is arguable the best we've ever produced. And that doesn't count the handful of youth NT and future NT players they have (Villareal or McBean possibly). They would be head and shoulders over the Battery without a doubt. 4. NCAA keeps producing the same players again and again? Like Dempsey, McBride, Reyna, Fridel, Keller, Holden, Bocanegra, Cameron, Goodson, Cherundolo, Onyewu.... This is what we've produced with limited NCAA budgets for coaches, scholarships, and extremely short seasons. I don't see why this can't be improved? Like I said before, I don't think the sport is unique in a way that it can't be compared to other sports like basketball. Our NCAA produces great basketball players because our communities really value basketball. Kids play it a lot in many cities outside of the school system, and NCAA has some great talent to choose from. And because people watch NCAA basketball, the programs have a ton of money to build the best facilities, hire the best coaches, and always have plenty of scholarships. Its nothing to do with NCAA itself, it has to do with the culture. There is no reason why in theory NCAA can't be producing a handful of Dempseys and Holdens every year, if we supported the programs the way we do other NCAA programs. Now I would agree that it won't happen, and that MLS will need to play a roll in development like MLB does, but I don't buy the fact that NCAA couldn't do it. I think they don't do it because the game is not as popular as football and basketball.
It is up to the USSF and MLS if they want a pro/rel format. At the moment, with all of the University educations abound in America working in Professional soccer for some reason we can not find a financial formula that works for all the Pro clubs to play in one league utilizing pro/rel. If we can over come this barrier Professional soccer will thrive in this country socially. Players and coaches and administration would improve the on field performance.
Wait, not performing in the MLS doesn't have consequences ? Really ? How are those teams coming along ? The pressure to qualify for the playoffs, perform in the playoffs, and win the playoffs is as immense as you can imagine. We have the same pressures, it's just what is driving them is different. HERE, LET'S DO THIS: The EPL should cut off the rest of the pyramid and be a closed league all to itself. It would be much better off that way. *grabs popcorn* That first one is being done steadily. The second is as well. Pro/rel means crap all to both of them.
True. Also true, largely because soccer is not a very popular sport in this country. And here we enter the "Magic happens". Why? Why would adding pro/rel result in what you're suggesting?
Absolutely competition makes a player better., on your first point. If you do not want to compare than the EPL to the MLS, where do you want to start? Italy, Spain, Holland and we can keep going. In regard to the Galaxy Americans versus the Battery Americans, well you mentioned house hold names in regard to who they are playing for, The "Galaxy". Donovan, yes one of the best American players ever, correct. The rest of those players that you mentioned on the Galaxy are very average. Not bad, not great, just average. Just like the Battery or what ever other team from the NASL or USL, not bad, not great, just average players. I coached Jimmy Conrad and Joe Cannon in 1999 with the San Diego Flash. Both came out of NCAA college soccer as did the rest of the team. Jimmy and Joe were good players, but nothing special. Jimmy went on to become a MLS great and a national team regular and played in one or two world cups. Joe Cannon a good keeper, tried in Europe but came back. The other players you mentioned at the top who came out of college and play in Europe well good for them. I will not write on Basketball any more. I do know for a fact though ,Basketball Cricket Rugby and track and field are sports taken very seriously in Europe, as are other sports. Yes soccer is the most watched and most lucrative, but there are also many other sports that pay very well. In regard to the NCAA, the decision makers just view soccer as a "Olympic Sport". The NCAA in regard to soccer, for get it.
Lets start with any league full of clubs that are about 1-15 years old to start with. You can't compare to leagues and communities in which people's dads and grandfathers and greatgrandfathers all supported the teams. They are parts of communities that go back further than anyone alive can remember. We don't have that here, we have a bunch of expansion teams. And we have expansion teams that are started in an era in which people can just turn on the TV and watch the best in the world. Compare us to what we are, a new league with new teams. I wouldn't say those guys are just house hold names, they were chosen by our national team to represent our country. Do you think that doesn't matter? You don't think that our coaches are picking the best players for our national team, that in fact there are guys in USL Pro that are as good or better than our current NT players? I find it hard to believe...why? Because of the free market. Quality always rises to the top. If the players in USL Pro/Battery were better than Omar Gonzalez and Landon Donovan and Edson Buddle then they would be making hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars a year in MLS. But they are making like 10k a year in D3. There isn't some conspiracy to keep those guys there, if in fact there were guys as good as Omar Gonzalez or Landon Donovan in USL Pro they would be bought up quick. I don't think you can honestly argue that the talent levels of the 2 clubs are in fact equal when you take away international players.
If cdskou is, as I believe he is, former San Diego Flash and Lancaster Rattlers head coach Costa Skouras, I find it absolutely mind-blowing that we have to explain this stuff to him. Costa... if Flash had won the A-League championship the year you were head coach in 1998, and as such had been promoted to MLS at the expense of New England Revolution (the worst team in MLS that year), do you honestly think that, with the finances and infrastructure and roster you had that year, you would have been able to last the year in MLS in 1999?
If NASL wants pro/rel (and I doubt they do) they they should introduce it first to let in clubs below them. If it will have this supposed impact of causing a big boost in crowds and clubs forming, then the same should happen below NASL level, and in 10-20 NASL should be much stronger than now.
NO! You just don't get it do you? You must be some secret agent paid for by Don Garber... See there is no real money/interest/sponsors/tv revenue in watching lower division soccer in the US and that is why IF WE HAD pro/rel and a PROPER system then we could force financially stable MLS teams into lower division soccer...where...they would then...ummm...make people love it...? Let me start again. England. Proper. Mickey Mouse. Supporter Culture. England. Cosmos. Garber. NFL. Part of the Game. Franchises. England. If you don't get it, I have reason to believe that you are in fact a paid MLS blogger.
Would you have folded due to a devastating lack of money? Would you have been able to cope withhosting an entire season of MLS games at your stadium? Would your club's finances have been able to cope with increases in player salaries, staff salaries, travel budgets, paying for improvements to stadium infrastructure, paying for additional insurance, that results from playing in MLS? Do you think you would have been able to offet this with appropriate levels of sponsorship money, additional investment, and support from the local media? Because if the answer to any of these is no, that's why we can't have pro-rel in MLS yet.
I have know idea, I was involved on the field coaching. I can answer questions on particular players or how that season went. I can answer questions in regard to the differences of the American player that was playing in the MlS and the American who was playing in the A-League. On your media question, I do know the San Diego Tribune gave us very fair coverage. I do remember we came up to Pasadena and drew with the Galaxy in pre-season. No big deal. The interesting friendly, that I do remember fondly was the match against Nacaxa.