Mid-East News II

I think you are walking into dangerous territory with the IMF, etc conspiracy theories.

People aren't "waking up and afraid"...at least not in America. Israel still enjoys heavy support among the American population by about a 4 to 1 margin. It's really rather simple. Israel is viewed as a socially modern state that shares strategic interests with the United States. What country in the region has women dressed in bikinis when they go to the beach? So when Americans see Israeli women in bikinis and Muslim women in hijab/chador, they will naturally support the Israelis since that's what Americans do. I think the sooner people in the Middle East realize that the United States and the West in general will never give up its support for Israel, the better off they will be.

Let's say Fulham= any Middle Eastern state other than Israel. Chelsea= Israel. The smarter Middle Eastern governments have realized that they are Fulham playing against Chelsea and they have settled for the draw. Iran under the IRI is Fulham but is playing against Chelsea and are going for the win.

AIPAC doesn't control major news corportations and Hollywood, etc. All AIPAC does is lobby congressional members and potential congressional members to sponsor bills that are favorable to Israel's interests. For example, in the 1980's, Israel didn't want US to sell AWCAS to Saudi Arabia. Well guess what? The sale went through because US interests prevailed over Israeli interests. And the relationship with Saudi Arabia is much more important to the US than its relationship with Israel.

 

It's apples and oranges. One is purely business the other is more complicated. Israel is more European western country while the Arabs have a "Alien" religion, culture, appearance and outlook on the world in the minds of most Americans.

 

I think that was what I was getting at.

 

Good luck to the Meli Lions at the WC the lions of Asia will roar.

 

Way to work soccer into the discussion!
While a Chelsea fan, I did like FFC doing well, during the FulhAmerica phase.
Perhaps, if its neighbors had accepted Israel at the onset, while also supporting a Palestinian state, the entire Middle East would have avoided wars & rhetoric, and been much better for it. Meanwhile, Israeli Arabs would still be waging and winning the bloodless demographic war. Without the apocalyptic aliyah & settler programs and immigration from the former USSR, the tipping point might even have been in sight.

 

FIFA status of Israel...

http://www.thenation.com/blog/178642/after-latest-incident-israels-future-fifa-uncertain

 

So you're confronted with a guy about to 'throw a bomb' and your response is to... 'shoot him in both feet'?

Er... yeah. That makes sense... NOT!

 

Linked article:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/1.572103
Attorney Tarek Barghout, from Palestinian Authority prisoners’ ministry, ... told Haaretz that the two suspects told him they bought cigarettes at a nearby store and were shot as soon as they lit a match."
"a Border Police spokesman said, “... a group of individuals was seen just seconds before throwing bombs at security forces. When they saw the Border Policemen, the group attempted to run away and tried again to throw bombs at the policemen. ... The suspects were apprehended, and a bomb was found on them”
and a rebuttal:
http://proisraelbaybloggers.blogspot.com/2014/03/anti-israel-activist-david-zirin-sports.html
So, who brought the bomb to the party? Were these two with a group & get caught up in something? Or, did they stumble into it by mistake? Seems odd that, if they did, they were the only two shot & arrested.

 

Indeed... but I think all this highlights is the lack of any really independent information from the area. Any time a report is made of an incident there the people making it are either labelled 'pro' or 'anti' Israel and then the rest of the world often ignores the rest of the report.

What we seem to be able to tell from the reports is that they threw at least one 'bomb', were then seen trying to throw another 'bomb' and, apparently, still had at least ONE other 'bomb' on them when apprehended.

It rather makes one wonder if, instead of visiting a shop to buy cigarettes, they weren't, in fact, visiting the local 'bombs-R-us' supermarket, 4 for the price of 3, (the Sabbath not included, cannot be combined with any other offers, terms and conditions apply).

In short, it all sounds a bit unlikely but then, maybe it would do anyway

 

OK! The middle east can relax... the EU's on the case.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26495550

The difficult and delicate process of forging a new relationship between Iran and the West takes another step this weekend with the first visit of Europe's foreign policy chief, Catherine Ashton, to the Islamic Republic.


It will also be a significant challenge for Baroness Ashton as she seeks to build on recent foreign policy successes to broach critical issues ranging from human rights to Tehran's role in regional conflicts including Syria.


On Saturday morning Iranian newspapers, of a more reformist leaning, welcomed her mission, hailing it as an achievement of Iranian President Hassan Rouhani's new approach.


Coverage of her visit, across moderate and hardline media, will underline both the centrality and sensitivity of her role here.


Mrs Ashton has been widely credited with playing a key role in negotiating the landmark interim deal between Iran and world powers last November, which requires Tehran to curb its nuclear programme in exchange for limited relief from sanctions. ​

Having said that, and despite cutting a rather uninspiring figure, Catherine Ashton is, in fact, quite well regarded by both sides so maybe it will lead to movement. Actually, maybe the fact she's not a 'big' personality helps her with the sort of ego-driven numpties these matters usually attract?

Let's hope so

 

Why thank you! Love working soccer into a discussion. After all, this is a football board. Yes perhaps...I've given up. I think the two state solution is the only solution but I think it's practically dead. For one, there are far more vicious conflicts raging in the region and Israel has moved to the right politically.

 

Never too late. I still believe that there will be a nation of Palestine, with Israel recognizing it. There is no logical reason for Israel not to recognize it. What's the alternative? Absorb Palestine into Israel, and create a huge voting bloc? The big problem will be the borders. The Arabs are afraid of an independent Palestine that does not include Israel. Well, the Jewish Israelis are not going anywhere, and the Arab countries have enough of their own problems.
I again say, that if its neighbors had accepted Israel at the onset, while also supporting a Palestinian state, the entire Middle East would have avoided wars & rhetoric, and been much better for it.
Imagine if, in 1948, Europeans had questioned the existence of a Muslim nation within Europe, and politicians proposed throwing those people into the sea, removing them from the history books, etc.
Where would Albania be today?

 

We can imagine a lot of things but that doesn't mean that we can go back in time and prevent them from occurring. Imagine if Hitler did not rise to power in Nazi Germany...imagine if the revolution in Iran didn't happen 35 years ago, etc.

The alternative is simple: the status quo until the situation explodes at a later date.

 

There's not gonna be a two-state solution.
However, there is not going to be a binational one-state either, in which Israel would absorb the citizens of the West Bank and/or Gaza, and where everyone hold hands and sing kumbaya.

You have a situation where neither of the ethnic groups want to be under the political domination of the other. And throw the bloody history into the mix, its obvious it is quite entrenched.
And what would be the national fabric of a one-state?
The national day that Israelis celebrate, is the same day Palestininians mourn as day of catastrophe and great loss.

Such a binational society would be ridden with violence and probably could not be sustained.
So...forget about one state. Thats as big of a pipe-dream as the two-state solution.

The answer lies somewhere in the middle, which is a Israel proper-Gaza-West Bank confederation.

Here's whats gonna happen:
The negotiations will go nowhere. Negotiations about two-states are a mirage, and merely designed to buy time and contain the situation.
Status quo will go on for some years while things are bubbling under the surface. At some point there is probably gonna be a new intifada. And then a new one. And again and again.
We are looking at a Lebanese civil war type scenario, until everyone gets sick of the conflict and sees the need for an ACTUAL solution (which is not two-state).

Right now that need for solution does not exist, because the balance of power is assymetrical.
Israel is the much stronger party and treated special by the US, and does not pay one iota for its occupation.

 

LOL arent you the delusional one.
What world are you living in?
Israel was created based on forcing another people out of its lands and homes, via mass violence. You dont create a state (in which there were people already living there) by giving flowers. You do it by force and thats what immigrant Jews from Europe (and elsewhere) did. End of story.
If this was done somewhere else, what country would recognize the legitimacy of that newly declared state on those terms?

But whatever, Israel is here now. Its a state and is not going anywhere. Its creation was a great tragedy and crime, but it is what it is and now you have to live with the situation. Two wrongs dont make a right.

The Arab states have already said (Arab peace initiative) that they would not only accept Israel, but would go to great lenghts to integrate Israel into the wider Middle East. IF Israel ends it ccupation, goes back to 1967 border and settles the question of "right of return" on mutually agreed terms.

Today the problem does not lie in the Arab/Muslim states pal.
The problem lies in that Israel is a spoiled little brat that Washington is indulging in the strongest possible manner.
Israel is like that spoiled brat in the store with his mommy (US). He wants candy from the shelf, and if mommy says no, he begins to cry and yell loudly in the store.
Mommy gives in because she has no spine to confront the little bastard.

Once US stiffens is spine, then there can be peace.

 

Arab and Muslim states have huge flaws in of themselves, but their role as it pertains to Israel-Palestine conflict is not that significant as it once was.
They are certainly not the stumbling block to a final settlement, Israel is. Well not just Israel, but also US inability to be a fair and honest broker.
That was my point.

 

Their role is actually more significant than you credit them with, not because of what they can/will do, but because of the poisoned legacy they left for the peace process.
As far as I concerned, I am quite unsympathetic to the plight of the Palestinian not because I am somehow in awe of Israel and regard their actions as some model of fairness, but because the Palestinians (and their arab backers) are the victims only because they lack the strength to be oppressors themselves. Basically, they are the same kind of oppressed victims which the Germans were in 1919.

"Forcing another people out of its lands and homes" did occur, indeed, but you seem to forget that it happened only after the war was initiated by the arabs. Prior to 1948, there was no displacement of population, since the British were in charge. The Jewish population which emigrated to Palestine arrived there without "forcing" anyone out of their home.
And the desire of the Jewish community to be independent was perfectly reasonable in the light of:
1) there was no Palestinian state yet to invoke the argument of preserving its territorial integrity;
2) the relationship between the two communities was quite poor and, if forced to live together, the functionality of the respective state became problematic.
If you want to argue that the Jews received too much under the 1947 Partition Plan, that is fair enough, but what counterproposal did the arabs offer? While the Jews accepted plan, the arab solution seemed to resolve around the idea "No jews, no problem". There have been no peace overtures from the palestinians at that time, nor will it be until the '90s.

For many a jew, the Arab peace initiative amounts to basically rewarding their sworn enemies, who waged several wars against them with an ultimate goal which bordered on being genocidal, and this in exchange for some dubious promises of peace and integration.
That's easier to recommend for a third party, but it's a pretty hard sell for a large part of the Jewish population for whom the arab threat of "driving the Jews into the sea" was not just empty rhetoric.

In addition, there is also the matter that the Arabs discovered their "love for peace" only after they were thoroughly beaten. These kind of agreements require trust. Having in mind that the Arabs were not interested in an agreement as long as they still had a fighting chance, to many Jews any "arab peace initiative" looks insincere and has them wondering whether they are not asked to allow a Trojan horse in their midst.

There were comparisons in this forum between Israel and apartheid South Africa. While there are some similarities in their policies, there is also one huge difference: the black population of South Africa had done nothing to cause the apprehension of the white class ruling class. They did not express "kill or kick out the whites" as their stated goal. The arabs did.

 

Hopefully, one where the mods wouldn't sanction me for calling you an idiot!

How was it, that the Jews were forced from their homeland?
Empires have swept back and forth through the Middle East for millennia. Same throughout the world. The Moslem religion was spread as much through the sword, as any other means.
Tens of millions of Europeans and South Asians were also forcibly moved, in the same period (late 1940s), to create new countries, which are recognized as legitimate.

Then, recognize it and move on!

While the first might happen, the second and third are unlikely.
No need to worry. There are no rational voices in the Arab League:
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Late...e-refuses-to-recognize-Israel-as-Jewish-state
Recognize Israel as a secular state.

Actually, it does, bub.
The incompetent Arab/Moslem countries have screwed themselves up so badly, that the only thing they can do to deflect criticism, is to complain about Israel.

 

Ouch, I'll take that to heart.
But its okay, I think you are a mindless drone.

You admittedly acknowledge the fact that Israel was based on the expulsion of another people, say many nations have been shaped by such injustice. And go on to imply something to the effect of whatever happened 60-70 years ago, no matter how injust, Israel in the region is the new status quo and it should be accpeted.
Which is actually true and I agree with, as indicated by my first post. May want to go over it again.
But at the same time you try to side-step and circumvent that same logic to which you argue for Israel (whatever happened happened, lets move on with it) and try to pin the blame on the Arab states for todays regional stumbling block, on the account of their reaction to Israel's declaration and the subsequent Arab-Israeli wars. Just lol @ you.

Oh this "Jewish state" nonsense again. Its getting so cliche, its a bit of a drag to debunk the argument but I'll accomodate you.
Israel can define itself whichever way it pleases.
How other states define it is of no greater value or relevance. Israel is not a Jewish state.
Its an Israeli state. Do you have the ability to distinguish between a race and a nationality?
Why is it important that the Arab League (a toothless organization, but since you mentioned it...) accept Israel as an ethnocratic state for the Jews?

To repeat myself from what I said in another thread, Egypts peace treaty with Israel, and the return of the Sinai to Egyptian sovereignty, was not conditioned on Egypt accepting Israel as an exclusively Jewish state, but rather as a legitimate and sovereign state, end of story.
One, with which it could uphold an international treaty on mutually agreed terms.
Get this Jewish state horseshit out of your head. Its a fabricated "issue" designed to fool gullible people like you.

 

quote="teammellieIRANfan, post: 29714656, member: 142402"]Ouch, I'll take that to heart. But its okay, I think you are a mindless drone.[/quote]
Still with the insults? OK, twerp.

Actually, I don't acknowledge your assertion as fact, because for every Palestinian who claims they were forced out by armed Jews, there's an Israeli who says the Palis were told to leave by their fellow Arabs, to return when all the Yahuds had been driven into the sea. There were also a lot of Palestinians left behind, for a supposed ethnic cleansing agenda.
Of course, it's possible that there were mixed messages in different villages, some fleeing, some staying. Ultimately, it doesn't matter who were pushed & who jumped. Gone is gone.

No. The Arabs should have accepted Israel and Palestine in 1948, in the same way they accepted newly carved-out states in the 1920s, such as Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait & Iraq!
Since then, they're butt-hurt after losing so many wars, in repeated humiliating fashion. Besides that, several of their own economies and governments are failed. Must be those Jews, eh?

Mighty white of you. But, it's not me who cares about the semantics. It's the Ayrabs!

As can the IRI.

Who was it, who just wrote that "Israel can define itself whichever way it pleases"? Who says that Judaism is a race?

It's not important how the AL accepts Israel, just that they do accept it.

Other Arabs states and many Egyptians still rail against the treaty. Also, Sadat was assassinated because of it.

It's not an issue to me, svacheem. It's still a big deal to Arabs & Israelis alike, however.
And, somehow, it does seem to get your panties in a bunch.

 

Meanwhile, this bunch of lunkheads protest in NYC against the Israeli draft:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/thousands-orthodox-jews-protest-israeli-draft-article-1.1715987
The interviews are painful to watch. These kids are brainwashed; also can barely speak English!

 

Maybe Im a twerp, but you are a little bitch aint ya?
However, that is neither here or there.

The A-rabs does not have to accept it as a Jewish state. Its not important.
They can accept it as a sovereign state and open diplomatic/economic ties without such a ridiculous requirement.
Netanyahu says its a requirement for a final settlement. He cant survive politically in Israel if he seriously moves towards a two-state settlement, given the political landscape.
So he has made this trivial issue into a redline.

Yes, and? There is no contradiction here. I still maintain that Israel can choose to define itself in which ever way it pleases. Demanding other countries to accept in the same definition and terms is horseshit.
I dont view Israel as a Jewish state, on the account of the cold hard fact that it isnt.
We're not talking about a religion here. We're talking about a nation/people-hood. Netanyahu says it openly so why not pay attention to what he says? "The nation state of the Jewish people".
As far as I am concerned, Israel is the nation state of the Israeli people, of which Jews form the majority.
Defining it as a Jewish state makes about as much sense as defining Belgium as the nation-state of the Flemish people.
News-flash buddy. Israel (and I mean Israel "proper") is already a binational state.

Wow, thats progress coming from you! With all due respect (well, not really), thats not how Netanyahu view things, as already explained.
Maybe you are more sympathetic to the A-rabs than you might like to think?

Not at all. There is reality. And there is what isnt reality. Israel is not a Jewish state. That's cold hard reality but you seem oblivious to it, for some weird reason. :S

Yes, yes, yeeeees. Im an anti-semite, thats what is implied here.
We're talking about a political issue and somehow abrakadabra zimzalabim! you managed to revert to this kind of lame narrative. That's a real toughie, how long were you itching begore getting that out of the holster?
Jews are responsible for all of the failures of the Arab government including their economies.
That's what we discussed and that's exactly what I said.
Its a Jewish cabal!

Now if you'll excuse me, Imma attend my anti-Jew support group.
DEATH TO DA JOOOZ!