Mexico

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Nutmeg, Nov 12, 2009.

  1. Metrogo

    Metrogo Member

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    Which is to say that the problem in Mexico is more localized than breathless press reports would tend to indicate, and while the problem at the moment my be worse in Juarez than in Jamaica, it's not worse on average in mexico compared to Jamaica.

    And finally, Haiti is a total disaster. You've glossed over that example.


  2. That Phat Hat

    That Phat Hat Member+

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    Since you brought up Rudy, I think NYC is an example where the drug laws, tightening or loosening thereof, don't matter that much.

    Here's basically what happened: Rudy's police chief put more cops on the streets so that helped, but what mattered more was that (a) addicts moved from crack to heroine, and (b) the economy improved in the mid-90s, and more importantly, the investment banking industry enjoyed a boom, bringing money and jobs to New York City.

    Granted, NYC is congruous to Mexico since the city's crime problem came from the users and the low-level dealers, whereas Mexico's woes are more rooted in the trafficking. But I do believe the problem isn't the drug trade itself, but the culture and society that allow it to flourish.
  3. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

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    The majority of violence in Mexico is localized to turf wars where the drugs are run, but the corruption behind the violence is in my understanding pretty wide spread. I've read hundreds of articles on this and the prevailing thought is people at all layers of Mexican government are at least complicit, and often actively involved.

    I don't particularly care if Mexico is worse or better than other countries. What concerns me more is how US Policy is contributing to not only a destabilization of a region (it is certainly fair to include the Caribbean and Central American countries like Guatemala in the discussion), but a rampant loss of lives that seems only to be escalating. I'm not OK with saying, "let the cartels finish each other off." Innocents are being caught in the mix.

    The murders of hundreds of Juarez women is a good example. Was it directly tied to the drug trade? I am not clear why Antonio can say so definitively it wasn't. As far as I know 99% of them remain unsolved. I suspect when an entire system is corrupted and an entire police dept is staffed by dirty officers, looking the other way on crime becomes a lot easier and innocent people are victimized.
  4. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

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    Oh no. To listen to Rudy tell it, it was an increase in officers and his broken windows policing methodology that led to a drop in crime and people not using drugs.

    I didn't buy it, either.

    To use or not to use is a personal choice, and there isn't much a government is going to do about it.


  5. Dr. Know

    Dr. Know Member+

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    I never said otherwise. However I was under the impression we're talking about the actual parts of Mexico where these problems are happening. No one is comparing Kingston's problems to Mexicali or Puerto Escondido.

    My argument was never that any of these caribbean nations are complete paradises with no violence problems. However I don't see how the drug/violence problems in these nations are MUCH worse than what's happening in certain parts of Mexico.

    Haiti is a disaster for different reasons.
  6. Metrogo

    Metrogo Member

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    Ahhh, one of my favorite places in the world.

    and indeed true.
  7. Dr. Know

    Dr. Know Member+

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    Haiti I believe has one of the lowest if not the lowest crime rate in the caribbean, which is pretty surprising.
  8. esesam

    esesam Member

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    A good book on the current state of Mexico is Mexico Unconquered by John Gibler


    My two pesos
  9. aguimarães

    aguimarães Member

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    They are intertwined in a way. Wherever drug trafficking goes, murder and crime of all sorts soon follows. But most of the murdered women in Juarez showed signs of rape. What´s also interesting is on the other side of the border, neighboring El Paso has one of the lowest murder rates in America.
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  10. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Cascarino's Pizzeria Member+

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    Really? A lot of people accidentally shooting themselves I guess. :)

    Mexico's motto "Gracias a dios para Haiti!"
  11. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Cascarino's Pizzeria Member+

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    Gentrification in NYC 'hoods drove out the so-called undesirables too - look at how the hipsters re-created parts of Brooklyn. Issues not covered by your pro-Rudy media.
  12. JBigjake

    JBigjake Member+

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    Should US drug users & abusers be more to blame than government prohibition? Whatever your position on legalization, it is our desire to get high that leads to drug rings here & elsewhere.
    While there may not be enough, there are many out-patient & in-patient programs. Everyone knows drugs are bad for you, even tobacco & alcohol. Yet most try & many abuse. IMO, most abusers usually don't seek help until after they become involved in the justice system, or are compelled by their work or family to seek treatment. Some won't seek help until repeat offenses find them in the penal system.
    If we go totally libertarian, & people can purchase & consume whatever they want, does there remain an obligation on governmentt, or even society, to try to deal with the problems & consequences of abuse?
    It will be grown outside the USA & imported faster than you can say Walmart.
    Marijuana is probably easier for teens to purchase than beer & cigarettes. Yet, plenty of kids try meth or coke. Pills are pandemic among the young in my area.
    Do you think Barack Obama will change this?
    Try it & you may, I say.
    Of course, alcohol was prohibited, then legalized (with restrictions). We still have alcohol abuse & its related problems, including domestic violence & drunk driving.
    Of course, at one time most currently prohibited drugs were legal or unregulated. Public outrage, genuine or otherwise, has led to new laws banning many drugs.
  13. JBigjake

    JBigjake Member+

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    Violence in Mexico & elsewhere

    "As a matter of fact" & "probably" are contradictions. Perhaps a few are thrilled. IMO, most are indifferent. At the same time, do people in any country around the world care much about what goes on elsewhere?
    People might call your opinion racist. I'm won't. You may be correct.
    IIRC, Jamaica has about the same population as Brooklyn (2.6M). An article about police shootings noted that Jamaican police kill hundreds annually.
    http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-...police-cripple-jamaicas-inner-cities-20080401
    "Jamaica has one of the highest murder rates and police killings in the Americas with around 1,500 homicides and 272 police killings in 2007."
    There are a handful annually in all of NYC (8.7M).
    You did not mention Honduras. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
    http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1135.html
    "Crime is endemic in Honduras ... Sixty-nine U.S. citizens have been murdered in Honduras since 1995; ... Nine in 2008 ... The United Nations ... reported 4,473 murders in Honduras in 2008 giving Honduras, with a population of approximately 7.3 million people, one of the world’s highest per capita murder rates."
    IIRC, all the current political turmoil in Honduras has claimed one life.
    Some of the stories I've heard from Mexicans living in my area, either first or second-hand (i.e. repeated to me), suggest that even rural Mexico has a major crime problem. I guess if everyone has nothing, there's nothing to steal.
    I didn't realize you had already provided this link. :D
    Great reductions in index crimes occurred during his administration. He can describe & attribute the success any way he wants. I noticed that things also seemed to markedly improve in LA (Bratton) & Miami (Timoney).
    http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1134.html
    "There are no "safe areas" in Haiti. Crime, a chronic problem over the years, has increased in recent years and can be subject to periodic surges sometimes not obviously explained by other events or conditions."
    Remember, total crime includes undiscovered & unreported crimes.
  14. Deep Wilcox

    Deep Wilcox BigSoccer Supporter

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    Really? I cannot imagine the CA country that is worse, and to limit mexico's problems to " the border", I don't think so. Ever been to Mexico City?
  15. Dr. Know

    Dr. Know Member+

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    Re: Violence in Mexico & elsewhere

    Look for recent articles. Violence in recent years has decresed in Haiti even though poverty is still a huge problem. And even going back a few years ago when it was worst it still had a lower crime rate than Jamaica, Dominican Republic and I believe even Puerto Rico. Of course it just proves that that's just one of the many factors involved. Considering that even if PR had a bigger crime rate than Haiti I'd rather live in PR 100% of the time.
  16. aguimarães

    aguimarães Member

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    Re: Violence in Mexico & elsewhere

    Central America is much worse (notice that was the one point no one disputed,) and currently has the world´s highest murder rate. I´ve been to Mexico City and it does have a high crime rate, along with the world´s second-highest kidnapping rate, but we were discussing drug trafficking. Their problems are different.

    Jamaica´s crime problems began with Cold War politics in the late seventies similar to Central America, but now it´s almost all drug related. I think you´re forgetting what New York used to look like around two decades ago. Over 2,000 homicides per year, and the rash of police killings during Giuliani´s term. Jamaica are going through a similar rough period.

    Tens of thousands of Central American-born (and US raised) gang members have been sent back to Central America since the LA riots and Deportation Act was signed in 1996. These are basically American criminals, with all types of sophisticated equipment/street smarts learned on the streets of LA and Miami, being sent back to countries with undermanned, poorly trained and corrupt police forces. Add to that the brain drain (more than half of people with any education taking off to the US and Europe) and they pretty much run their countries.

    Theft and rape, unfortunately yes in some areas. Still it´s nothing like Juarez.

    All of those nations have different causes of crime, but most have a long history of violence and corruption from top to bottom, and the police are universally looked down on (with good reason.) There aren´t very many Giulianis willing to stand up to the thugs, and those that do don´t live very long. One thing the State Deparment should do is deny foreign aid to governments with histories of corruption, it´s just putting our tax dollars in a bag with holes. This is a good example.
  17. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator Staff Member

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    How?

    we control only a small part of the country
  18. Shaster

    Shaster Member

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    There is no English link, but some Chinese blogs written by people who are participation in these projects.

    Basically, you have to work with local governments and the farmers to help them change what they planted. For example, in Burma, the soil condition is perfect for opium, and not so perfect for other stuff. The effort is that Chinese money and UN money (including American money) came in to help sustain the first 5 years of transformation.

    Those farmers switched to rubber plantation, and just get a big hit by Obama's protectionist measure against Chinese tires (which is one reason that how China is able to buy off all those production from farmers). Another way is to develop Kunsa--the Drug King's places as a tour package, but anyway, you have to keep a 10 years of time frame to get things done.

    I think the reason US failed in Afghan because they told farmers to switch from poppy, but when fall came, no one buys those switched products.
  19. JBigjake

    JBigjake Member+

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    Violence in Mexico & elsewhere

    If you're trying to make the point, you can find & link the articles. I quoted from the current State Department advisory. I also noted that much of the violence & crime in Haiti is unreported.
    Rash? Handful, perhaps. A week's worth in Jamaica.
    No, they're CA criminals & illegal aliens being sent back home. What happens in their native violent or corrupt culture is that country's problem. We can either jail them or deport them.
  20. NickyViola

    NickyViola Member+

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    A lot of people (myself included) think meth and heroin should be legalized. Of course if cocaine were not prohibited it's hard to imagine that meth would have ever even been created.
  21. aguimarães

    aguimarães Member

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    Re: Violence in Mexico & elsewhere

    Both the MS-13 and Calle 18 gangs responsible for the huge murder spike in the last two decades are American gangs, formed on the streets of LA. If war refugees come here at one or two years of age, join gangs in the US, and speak little to no Spanish (or Chicano slang Spanish) when deported, then yes, those are American criminals. Regardless my point was aimed towards the brain drain, not deportation.
  22. Scotty

    Scotty Member+

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  23. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

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    Tough to watch. It's hard to equate what is happening in Juarez with anything that's happened in the US, because I don't believe the US has seen this type of instability in any of our lifetimes. And the depravity of what is happening is truly shocking, in the same sense to me that 9/11 was shocking - it leaves you questioning people's humanity.
  24. El CHarro_NEgro....

    El CHarro_NEgro.... Member

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    I live there. Please, do tell me.
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  25. El CHarro_NEgro....

    El CHarro_NEgro.... Member

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    One thing is an admittedly very bad crime situation and being "on path to anarchy". Sensationalist headlines anyone :rolleyes:

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