Why do you address me? Anyway, here an article from a while ago: http://www.football-espana.net/31641/soriano-explains-messi-development
I highly doubt it. Great players transcend eras... when I watch matches of Di Stefano while he was at R.Madrid he just seems to be a different breed. As great as that team was it seems to me pretty evident just by watching the matches/extensive clips that he's above the rest, even Puskas. The same feeling is transmitted by Pele, Cruyff, Maradona and at some points in their careers, Ronaldo and Best.Guys like Zico, Platini, Eusebio, Muller, Zidane, Baggio, Garrincha, Charlton, Matthews, Maldini, Beckenbauer and other legends not normally mentioned in that top 5, IMO just dont have that magic. They may play better than every one else, win more trophies, score more goals but to me they dont exude that "out of this worldness". Messi, beyond raw stats i.e goals, assists, gpg and all that stuff people are paying so much attention to these days has that magic. Di Stefano, Pele, Cruyff, Maradona, Messi and to a lesser extent Ronaldo and Best at their peaks have 'It' ... On a side note, I'd love for Messi to win the world cup, preferably as the top performer, decisive in the KO stages and if possible put up some Just Fontaine 58/ Platini 84 numbers, just so I could hear what new arguments will be used this time.
I'd love it if he flops big time, and his friends at Spain see an early exit too. Meanwhile, it would be awesome if Neymar can win it.
Of course it includes DiStefano. If you are going to come back with the WC argument, he did not get a chance to play it with Argentina unfortuntely. Great description of the magical players, I would add Puskas, Garrincha and Eusebio to that list. Indeed Messi with Barca has that extra dose of otherworldliness, but it's a challenge that has been clearly given to him to replicate it with Argentina and as the best player of his generation, he cannot shy away from it.
I doubt it very much... Puskas was older near passed his peak at time ... and plus ... he tried to PLEASE Di Stefano when he played for Real ... meaning he "yielded" by play respect to him. In my view, Di Stefano was a more complete, a true leader/playmaker (a bit more than Puskas) but to say he was "above" Puskas is not quite correct. You maybe right .. but ... how you explain why Messi could not be even at "wordclass" level under Argentina shirt -06-2012 ? forget about the so called "out of this world" there. The only reason that Messi is "on par" with pele maradona ... for his STATS in Barca shirt ... to say the least. Everyone still awaits on his performance outside Barca for Once! Hopefully ... that would be next WC14! Last bold, I think you dream too much! Do you realized Juste Fonatine made 13goals/6games > 2GPG there? or a Platini did score 9goals/6games = 1.5GPG? Scoring many goals is great, but HOW you scored those goals would be even greater! Maradona only needed 5goals, Garrincha 4goals, Pele 6goals, and Cruijff 3goals ... to establised their greatness there!
Based on age and persona I could see O Rei"Angel Eyes" Pele, Diego "Tuco" Maradona, Lionel (Blondie) Messi.
Well you are speculating there are not you? Is there ever "another Maradona" or ever there is another Pele? NO, NOT YET ... so your assumption of "mythology" was a BIASED and FALSIFIED claim!
You don't actually need to have two Maradonas incarnated to get what I was saying, and what I said isn't exactly anything new or radical (or invented by me). Old times and things happened in history are remembered, re-told, etc. That gives them something the new things don't have. Really that simple, and again: it's not criticism on Pele or Maradona. New players have other things the old times don't have (such as "the excitement of the new").
What you said is not new as you are among those who "falsely" blamed on the so called "Nostalgic" point of view. 1- Pele was regarded as the best in 60 and better than many legends BEFORE him: Sir Freidenrich, Moreno, Zizinho, Meazza, Sir Stanley of pre 50's. to Garrincha, to Di Stefabo Puskas of the 50s' 2- Maradona was great from 80's and he was often regarded as #2, higher than many ma ny legends "BEFORE" him in Di Stefano, Puskas, G Best Eusebio of 50 to 60's (bar Pele) to Cruijff Didi Bobby Charlton, Beckenbauer, Rivelino of 70's to ... Zico Platini Rummenigge *elapsed era 80's So your point of "OLD" or NEW is not valid. For your info: Nostalgic point of view = Sr Freidenrich > Moreno > Distefano > Pele> Cruijff > Maradona > ... Messi (now) and this is NOT the case at all! ========================================= Like in Basketball, Mike Jordan was regarded as the best ever , yes better than many legends before himself in Kareem Jaapar, Will Chamberlain, or Bill Russel Magic Johnson Your point is NOT well validated then!
You are clearly not understanding what I am saying. One last time, and if you don't get this, so be it. I'm not saying anything about how players were ranked in relation to each other (as in who was regarded the best or the second best in some chosen decade). Here's what I say: when we compare old greats and new greats, the old ones have some advantages in the debate, the new ones have some other advantages. How you count all the aspects of the debate together to form a fina list of who were the best is up to you and how you emphasize the aspects of the groups and the merits of the players. And here's the key point: "mythology" (or whatever you wanna call it, "nostalgia") is ONE aspect of the debate, but there are many others, and "mythology" alone doesn't dictate the order of the players. Thus, nostalgia is not a point of view that puts players to order. It's one aspect of the debate. But to use it alone is like to use another single aspect of the debate to rank players. Say, the new players benefit from getting to play on better pitches. But while you would include that issue into the debate, you wouldn't rank players according to how even pitches they played on.
I know exactly where you're coming from ... you felt the new generation somehow got a disadvantage due to whatever you called "mythology" of older ones - and I said there is NO SUCH THING! Unless we start discudding about Sir Freidenrich (30's) or a Moreno (40's) ... when we had not much of data from them. Yeah these legends were part of the MYTH. But Pele/Maradona ... were REAL case and there is NO MYTH about them. ========================================== Not sure if you followed Basketball? I did watch Jordan, Magic Johnson live ... and also I watched Kobe, and leBron in this era right now. I can tell - Kobe was close but even if he could achieve 7 rings (!) like Jordan, he was not as "explosive" , nor having the same "charisma" of Jordan! - LeBron is a HUGE talent (like Ronaldo of 97) with skills and power, speedy that could surpass or replace Jordan. However, up to now I oculd not foresee how he would get more than 5 rings, forget about 7 (of Jordan) that's NO MYTH, and REAL CASE.
You took my last point too seriously. Those numbers are obviously fantasy, the point was that whatever this guy does over the past 6 years, there's always a new argument to disregard his greatness. For me Messi has played pretty much the same way for Argentina since day 1 (okay, not exactly day 1) but people put too much importance in goals scored i.e he was scoring for fun at Barcelona, why not the same for Argentina. All this disregarding the difference in roles played and how the team was designed. At Argentina he was more withdrawn and primarily a provider, I'd like to see his assist stats / chance creation stats in the post-Riquelme days up to 2012 where he played further forward and goals duly followed. Addressing the off-topic Puskas vs Di Stefano, wasn't Di Stefano a year older? They were more or less at the same stage, and in any case he has nothing to envy Di Stefano in terms of goal stats while they were both at Madrid. For example in the 7-3 vs E.Frankfurt, Puskas scores 4 and Di Stefano 3, but watching the game from minute 1 to the 90th, for me Di Stefano really is a class apart, he just seems from a different time as compared to the rest. This may very well just be subjective opinion, but thats the impression I get whenever I watch Di Stefano, Pele, Cruyff, Maradona and recently Messi. Best and Ronaldo at times it feels that way but it wasn't sustained long enough. @Pipiolo I have to admit I haven't watched much of Garrincha besides 62' and I have Puskas and Eusebio just below that absolute elite.
Thanks for clarification on your part. However my 2 cents on Messi and Di Stefano: 1- Messi ( at Barca vs Argentina) Well, many mistakenly (or excused) claimed that he got a different role (more withdrawn) than at Barca. - From 2006 t0 2009: Messi was playing as either wide FW (right) or just behind 1 striker for Argentina shirt. ONLY at WC2010, agree that he played deeper. - From 2011 to now, thanks to new coach he brought Messi back to be main CF (most games) and some games as FW (along with either Tevez or Kun in front) I never said Messi played "bad" for Argentina. But one would kinda "wonder" why he coudl not even repeat "HALF" of his goals stats at Barca. Clearly Barca system is built for him there, and Argentina are not. 2- Di Stefano (vs Puskas) He shared the SAME advantage as of Messi. Di Stefano Real 50-60 = Messi Barca 2009 to 2013 in the sense they are packed with many world class players and theyplayed WELL together - only few minor case like Didi for Real and Ibra for Barca in one season. Yes you're right that Di Stefano was one year older than Puskas, but that's not the point. The main point is: - Real first galacticos project was built around Di Stefano (main play maker/CAM) - Puskas came a few years later and he was there more like a FW (of which he could do great but in his peak and his usual style he liked to be more than that). - With a bit more of research, you would see often, Puskas had to YIELD to Di Stefano in term of sharing goals and implying game style from MF. Puskas did say : "understood the pressure of Di Stefano in scoring goals for Real liek he used to, I simply made him available in that spot" - Didi was often regared as a "failure" case at Real but in fact, he could NOT or did NOT want to YIELD his games style to Di Stefano right in center of midfield = Didi often claimed " the way Di Stefano played pushing him too much backward as just a defensive midfielder, and there is no way to justify their style in the same small space of MF there" So my saying is that it's "EASIER" to see a Di Stefano playing with more "stamping role" than a Puskas in Real team. (just like Ronaldo joing Real galacticos: he already passed his peak in term of fitness due to 2 serious injuries. So in that team, it's "easier" to see a Zidane as the main player with more impression than a Ronaldo in such stage) Now ... based on "just that team" and to say : Di Stefano (or Zidane) was a "clear better" player than Puskas (or Ronaldo) is just mis-leading or misinfo. They (puskas and ronaldo) had made great impression way before (Real team) or outside that team, to say the least.
- The first player ever to score 8 goals against a single specific team in Uefa Champions League, against AC Milan. Now 6 away from Raul as the all time Champions League top scorer.
In all fairness, records like this are meaningless. Because the requirement is that an opposing team plays Champions League every year and is preferably not extremely strong. Milan meets of course these requirements: they play every year CL and they are not very strong. They are a mere shadow of what they were between 1987-93 (IMO between 1993-96 the cracks already appeared); or 2002-07 in a more intermittent way. When moving to such a level for searching records, it loses significance in my opinion.
Do you have any guess about what happened this year? A player prone to injuries, then turns into a machine for years and now back again and again to get injured. I think he is hasty. Perhaps the desire to score goals and lead goal scoring tables causes he return sooner than it should. Anyway, I think he's worried about his form at the World Cup, at least from now. He should.
There is a correspondent who has worked for El Periodico for many years (or still does). That is a Catalan newspaper. The reports from him and others are here that with the departure of Guardiola also parts of the medical staff left. The ones who deal with daily nutrition have departed in entirety. It is said that the diets have changed and that he eats red meat again (which he shouldn't). But that's only what I hear.
Well it's a nature of an athlete. It's just too difficult to keep your fit level high for >10 years (unless you are Pele, Puskas, Di Stefano or to some extent ... Cruijff and Beckenbauer) So far Messi only suffered some minor injuries and I think that's quite normal ... (there were other lesser names but not much different in keeping top form for long while like Gigss, Shearer, zidane, Henry, Nisterooy, Rooney ..)
While I agree with you in that sense, but I think Messi (and CR7) deserved a good mention with their "records" - even not as "difficult" as some might think, but they are surely not easy that "any greats" (I meant great players) could achieve that given same ... situation. So far they have kept theri top form for like 5,6 years consecutively. That's another great thing to happen. I think.