'Messi scores all his goals because of Xavi and Iniesta making sick assists...'

People can say Messi is dependent on the Barcelona System, but saying he relies on Iniesta and Xavi. Hah.
Though I have to admit, when Messi scored that goal from Halfway against Getafe all those years ago, I couldn't help but admire that assist from Xavi.

 

That last thing is a good observation of you. I want to add two remarks:

If you refer to the likes of Platini and Maradona who had one stand-out tournament in terms of goals and assists then it is obvious that Platini wasn't called the best of all-time in 1978 and Maradona had also not reached that region in 1982 IIRC.
So, if some are placing Messi in these regions it is predictable you'll see some resistance.

Secondly, Platini and Maradona were playmakers. Platini even more than Maradona. So the standards and benchmark was different isn't it? Goals are less important if you're a playmaker I guess.

 

He's already scoring well for Argentina. He has 5 goals in his last 5 matches under Sabella, you know an actual coach. That said, he's still dropping deeper than he should be and teammates are simply not helping out very much. Argentina still doesn't have an actual playmaker. They're relying on Messi to not only try to create everything but to also score everything. That's impossible.

It's the same issue he's had in the past. If a pattern emerges when coaches change but the team still has similar problems it's not the fault of a single player. But it's Messi who gets blamed for Argentina's failures despite the fact that he's actually been the team's best player for years now.

 

So he has now a decent coach, plays with world class team-mates and still you aren't satisfied?

Exactly: he is still a top class player when playing for Argentina. But at Barcelona he is of another dimension, the so called Pele-beater.

That is the whole central thing at stake.




And maybe I'm confusing you with someone else but didn't you say about C Ronaldo "he scored against Bosnia and other weak opponents"? What about Messi?


Of course Messi is a legend but the likes of Zidane, Ronaldo, Van Basten, Keegan, Rummenigge etc. are also not placed among the greatest ever. All in these lists have their selling points but often the greatness of the teams where they played in worked against them. They did not play for the equivalent of Napoli, mid-60s Ajax, mid-40s Honved and so on

 

I do think Messi is reliant on Xavi and Iniesta. But Dani Alves plays a huge part in the assisting of Messi as well. The fact that he has scored 60 goals for Barca this season speaks for itself.

And the fact that he does score fewer goals for Argentina is also a prove of this. However he IS a great player and he is the best right now in my opinion.

Thomas Laursen - http://soccergearnews.com

 

Which world class teammates are you talking about? Aguero, Di Maria, Higuain? ALl great players. Also all attackers. Mascherano barely plays for Barcelona and when he does he plays defense. Who else? The defense? Zabaleta, barely starts for Man City, Demichelis wayy past it, Burdisso waay past it, Zanetti? Romero who doesn't even start for his club. Lavezzi doesn't start and he's done nothing for Argentina. Pastore doesn't start and barely gets minutes. What else?

Who on earth from Argentina has ever called him Pele-beater? Ever? That's the international media and nobody really thinks he's better than Pele or Maradona.

Look at the teams Messi has scored against. In his last matches with Argentina he's scored against Spain multiple times, Brasil, Portugal, etc...

Zidane, Van Basten, Ronaldo are not placed amongst the greatest ever??? Which planet do you live on?

 

so? messi is accounted for about 50%+ of barcelona's production. even if you want to credit the stars being aligned, messi has been great historically.

 

Besides the earlier mentioned Brazil 1982 and Croatia 1998 I have another example which I deliberately refrained from calling.

It is Holland 1974.

Five first class defenders were injured: Laseroms, Israel, Mansveld, Drost, Hulshoff. Hulshoff and Israel made Ballon d'Or lists. They were among the best defenders in the world. Mansveld was the first alternative of Israel but was also injured by June 1974. Drost was the second alternative but injured too. Laseroms was after Hulshoff the first alternative for the stopper role.

All unavailable.

The partnership of Rijsbergen-Haan was an emergency solution and definitely not the best available. Haan played as midfielder for Ajax and Rijsbergen was the default right-back of Feyenoord (but played in center for his club in case of injuries).

Also this famous team (13 million citizens, hope most will realize this) had a sub-par defense.

 

loll so is this the argentina doesnt have a good team!!11 excuse? Di maria...aguero...higuain....all world class attackers. very very good defensive mid mascherano. Zabaleta is a good fullback too. If messi is the greatest ever that should be enough for him to own just like he does in barcelona....but wait no xavi and iniesta there Argentina doesnt have 70% possession every game too...or a team that frustrates the opposition by using tiki taka to hold the ball long periods of times.

If you actually pay attention to messi in barca...he loses the ball a lotttt. He has lost the ball the most amount of times in la liga of any player. This isnt a problem though you know why? because of the barca system is tailor made for him. When he loses the ball in barca the whole team pressure and usually regain the ball back right away and then they do their gay tiki taka over again and keep doing this till they score. In argentina it doesnt work that way, the midfielders and defence arent as good so that type of thing will go punished. Which is why messi is a product of the barca system

on that second point...cool he scored in friendly games good for him? lool. Theres a reason why they are called friendly games, its games teams usually dont give full effort in and use it just to test out formations and players. Remembering the portugal argentina game i actually felt a bit embarrassed for messi and argentina. They took that game so serious playing messi the whole 90 while we subbed out almost our whole starting lineup in like the 60th LOL. The only goal ill say bravo to is the brazil one because when its argentina brazil the teams will always give full effort due to that rivalry.

 

Aguero barely plays for Argentina. He's basically just used as a super-sub that comes on for the last 15 minutes, if at all. The reason for that is left to you as an exercise.

Di Maria is also a part-time player for Argentina.

I'm not saying Messi is the greatest ever, but it's clear you haven't a clue what you're talking about...

 

lol ya ok there. Post argentinas current starting lineup. Dont forget to include di maria and aguero

 

What do you mean "current starting lineup"? Does Argentina have a match today? We're basically talking about WC 2010 and a little about Copa America 2011. In both these tournaments, Aguero wasn't used much.

But if you want to look more recently, lets look at WC 2014 qualifying for Aguero:
Matchday 1: DNP
Matchday 2: DNP
Matchday 3: un-used sub
Matchday 4: halftime sub

Grand total: 45 minutes.

 

Very well said Puck

There are 2 dilemma that "Barca or Messi fanboy" often get away with:
- Quickly use Barca's stats and start comparing with the TOP legends !
- however when come to NT (Argentina) instead of finding out why for Messi, they nitpicking into other greats unsuccessful years/events

===================================================

Note that we know and acknowledge Messi is and will be a GREAT legends sooner or later. However at this time, he is NOT the best or still distanced away from the best ever (i.e. Pele, Maradona ...)

We shall say: Let's HOPE and SEE Messi's time (mature in next 2014) and we'll comeback here.

The other greats did their FAIR SHARE when given chances to expose (won WC or not)
- pele 10goals/6ass/10games WC58,70 (if we ignored 62 &66 injured)
- Maradona 5goals+5ass/7games WC86
- Garrincha 4goals+2ass/6games WC62
- eusebio 9goals+1as/6games WC66
- Cruijff 3goals+4ass/7games WC74
- G.Muller 14goals/5ass/14games WC70/74
- Platini 9goals/6games Euro84 + 4go+4as/13ga WC82/86
- Ronaldo 12goals+4ass/14games WC98/02
...

 

Not to mention that Tabarez is levels above both Maradona and Batista as a coach.

Samuel only played in two matches, got injured and did not play again after the SK match. He was playing well up to that point.

Aguero is world class though, he should start for Argentina but precisely because of Messi he doesn't. Brazil won the WC with Romario-Bebeto, Argentina should emulate it with Messi-Aguero up front.

 

I like how Pele fanboys get away with awarding Pele 3 world cups but ignore WC 1962 when its convenient for their current argument.

hmmm...

 

You still don't get it.

On paper, defenders might be top class, but play poorly at the WC and vice versa, on paper they might not be top class, but perform great and above their normal level during WC tournament.

Holland might've been missing top and first choice defenders at WC 74 but the ones who played instead of them did very well. Rijsbergen-Haan turn out to be a good partnership in defense for the Dutch, until the final game.

Argentina's defenders in WC 2010 played poorly. Maradona used a system with just one DM (Mascherano), which proved not enough to cover and help the poor defending. One of the defenders was Samuel. How would you rate him as a defender overall? Just before the WC he was part of a treble winning Inter team that put good defensive performances (no doubt, partly because of Mourinho's tactics), especially in the CL against Chelsea (away) and Barcelona (away). But Samuel was terrible for Argentina at the WC. Was that due to fatigue from the long winning season with Inter or due to poor team organization/structure from Maradona as the coach? Where was Cambiasso, who also had a key role in Inter's treble? Where was Zanetti, in either midfield role or right back role?

Maradona used Gutierez as RB and he is not even a defender. And don't get me started on Burdisso and Heintze as defenders. They have never even been decent at club level. Of course the addition problem was/is that Argentina didn't and still doesn't have much alternatives for defense when their players perform poorly there. Either they have to find other defenders who perform better or the ones they use have to start performing. Otherwise no matter what the offense (Messi, Higuain, Tevez, Aguero, Di Maria) does, it will never be enough for them to be successful.

Now, I will agree that Argentina's poor defense only explains why the team is not more successful and reaching further stages in international tournaments. And I will agree that it doesn't explain why Messi didn't score during WC 2010. He should've scored, but in some occasions he was unlucky not to, on other occasions the opposing GK made excellent saves on his shots. Nevertheless, Messi still was at the center of every good Argentina attack and played well as their playmaker. He wasn't great as he is for Barcelona, because the structure of the team is different. Not because he was specifically missing Xavi and Iniesta.

Ok, Messi loses the ball a lot. You know why? Because he has the ball a lot. But do you also know that he has the most successful dribbles in the final third of the field? Do you know that he also has the most successfully completed passes in the final third? Messi also assists more than anyone else on his team, creates more chances than anyone else and scores more than anyone else.

 

I don’t know who Estel was referring to, but I can’t recall Platini ever being considered the “best of all-time” or considered a player that was destined to become the successor of a Di Stefano, Pele or Cruyff. The only young players that I can seriously recall falling into that category – was Maradona and Ronaldo.

 

So based on those WC goals and assists players are rated on all-time greatest list? Well, looking at your list, Gerd Muller has more production than Cruyff and he has won the WC against Johan on top of that. But who is rated higher as the greatest player, Cruyff or Muller? Cruyff, right?

Di Stefano is not on your list, but he is rated higher than many names on it.

In addition, this is not a topic of discussion about Messi as the greatest player or being on any list about the greatest players. This is about whether or not Messi scores his goals because of Xavi and Iniesta. The statistics (your favorite tool to use for arguments) prove that Messi's goals are not dependent on Xavi and Iniesta.

 

I think his point is that Messi needs to show at the WC that he belongs as an all-time great (I agree with this).

 

But his point is flawed because Di Stefano or "El Charro" Moreno never accomplished anything at the world stage and are historically regarded as top 5 to top 25.

 

DiStefano and Best are exceptions, each one became an icon without playing the WC. Is Moreno really regarded that highly? He should be, but is he? Not having played in a WC weighs heavily against him, though no fault of his own.

 

According to this source he is: http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/iffhs-century.html#world

And here is a view of where he ranks in South America: http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/iffhs-century.html#sampoy

But it is not only a case of two or three players that never accomplished anything on the world stage but a plethora of players.

The likes of Puskas, Van Basten, Zico, Matthews, etc. are many times regarded in top-25 lists as well.

In the case of Messi, if he doesn’t excel at the WC, he will be disregarded as a WC Legend, but as is the case with the others that I mentioned, he will be remembered as a footballing legend.

And in regards to Moreno: He was and is always considered a top-5 player from Argentina.

In his days, "El Charro" was considered to be a leader not only by voice but by example. He was considered to be valiant; the guy that called the shots and whom his peers looked up to – Di Stefano being one of them.

In fact, he is regarded by many old-timers in Argentina as equal or even superior to Di Stefano.

What occurred with the “Blond Arrow” is that he transcended the game to greater heights because of his reputation in the 'old continent'. But in South America, and in particular in Argentina, José Moreno is regarded just as high by many.

 

I am not sure about that Vegan - that's HOW the world turns and evolves

di stefano was a great player but he could have "gotten away" with the WC pressure for:
- Argentina REFUSED to participate WC50 and 54 (NOT Di Stefano fault)
- Besides the WC event, He did a fantastic achievement:
* 8 x Liga champs with 5x best liga player and 4xpichichi
* 5 x EuroCL with 2x topscorer

So in order to "equate" to di Stefano (and IGNORE the WC's) Messi needs:
3x Pichichi, 1xUCL topscorer, 2xUCL and 3x Ligas under his belt in years to come ... PLUS a "good excuse" not to participate WC!

 

He got away with it for several reasons:

1.) He moved abroad and built a reputation where Europeans will favor him over a guy like Moreno – who stayed in South America.

2.) He was considered a ‘total footballer’ – one with rarely any weakness.

But what some people don’t know – is that Di Stefano himself acknowledged many years ago, that he owed a great deal to Moreno – for without him he would never have been the player that he became; he learned so much from him.

But my point is: despite the WC being very important, there have been many players that didn't participate or excel in that tournament and are still regarded as all-time greats.

 

It's good to see that Moreno is highly regarded at least by some, to me he should be at least level with DiStefano if not above him. Those who saw both play for River always prefer El Charro.

I don't think not winning the WC means not accomplishing anything. Zico and Puskas had great WC tournaments even without having won it. Van Basten for being the best player of a legendary AC Milan and leading the Dutch to their only international title (LOL). It's true he sucked at WC90 though.

Not that many really: DiStefano, Best, Matthews, Moreno, never participated in one. Those that participated but didn't excel, only Van Basten comes to mind as a legend.