'Messi scores all his goals because of Xavi and Iniesta making sick assists...'

They had 74% possession against Mallorca earlier in the season without the two of them, 71% against Sociedad and 77% against Zaragoza (albeit against 10 men here). It's a small sample size, but pretty much in line with their normal figures.

 

You forget something important.....see, there is this thing called "DEFENSE". Spain has good defense, Argentina doesn't. What would Xavi and Iniesta be without good defense behind them?

 

That is this season, when they have also Fabregas (price tag 40 million) and Alcantera at their disposal. Those two are two excellent retainers of the ball and Alexis Sanchez does also a way better job than David Villa in this department.

How did Barcelona fare without Messi on the pitch? In late 2009 they played against Internazionale in the group stage. Barcelona won with 2:0 and had 67% ball possession. Without Messi.

 

I have some issues with this excuse. Brazil 1982 had also a shabby defence but leaved their mark, forever.

I don't think Argentinas defence is that bad and, say, worse than the defence of Holland.

You can play well without a good defence. You will not win but you show at least some everlasting to the world.

And you can also have some success without a good defence. See Holland. And before you start about Van Bommel and De Jong; Argentina has Mascherano.


Of course, you can't blame Messi (and the other attackers) for defensive mistakes so we have to look at how the creative department does their job. That is how I personally look to the game.

Current Germany and Italy has also not a top class defence. Top class defenders are currently very scarce because, in the words of Lee Dixon, the art has been diluted by card-happy referees (thanks Bjorn Kuipers). So I look at how the mid-field and attackers perform. It is not that difficult.

 

That may be true, but you did have to go back 30 years to find a good example. And that Brazil team was well coached, unlike Argentina in 2010 who arguably had the worst manager in WC history. At least for a WC contender.

 

If you were to take Messi out right now who would do most of the goal scoring for Barca? Villa is injured, Afellay is injured, Pedro is in a slump, Alexis is good but he's wasteful and not THAT much of a goal scorer, Cuenca and Tello are still young and ripe.

Out of the 59 goals Barca have scored in all competitions since 2012 Messi has scored 40 of them.

I don't know what you're trying to argue.

 

First, it is not an excuse, it's a fact - Argentina does have a poor defense. Yeah, Brazil 82 left their mark.....with their poor defense amongst other things. At least they had fullbacks that contributed to the attack. Argentina doesn't even have that luxury.

Holland didn't have poor defense in 2010. And no, I do not think any team can be successful without good defense. Of course, defense is not just the defenders.

Argentina and Messi were playing well at the last WC even with poor defense, until.....they met Germany. They got exposed....eventually that happens to all teams with poor defending or team structure.

Yeah, Germany and Italy don't have top class defenders, but their defenders are at least better than what Argentina have. The Germans have Lahm and Hummels, Italy has Chiellini. Look at which teams their defenders play and look at where the Argentinian defenders play.

 

Brazil 82 had poor defense from midfield to center back much worse than Argentina W10. But samba play means "attacking is the best defensive tactics" - And for that AT LEAST Zico got 4goals+4ass / 5games in that WC

Now Argentina's "weak defense" did NOT support the FACT Messi could not score goals! This is your GOOFY analysis .. or should I say "excuses"

 

It's true however he didn't have to score any goals in the first round, even if he came close plenty of time and other players tapped in the chances he created.

Against Germany the error came from defense when Argentina let in a horrible first goal because Otamendi made a huge error. Remember Germany were only 1-0 up when half time came due to that error. In the second half everything broke down because Diego had his tactics messed up and Germany capitalized on that. You think Messi had any chance? He was in the midfield line half the time are rarely got into his best positions. It was a complete mess of tactics.

 

Wow! Now you use big words like "GOOFY"?

Like I said, at least Brazil had their fullbacks contribute to the dazzling attacking samba style. Argentina do not have their fullbacks do that.

At WC 2010, Messi was at the heart of everything good about Argentina's attacks. Many people conveniently forget that Maradona's tactical plan for the team changed just before the tournament. Originally, he intended to play Messi behind a single striker, Higuain (with this plan they did beat Germany in a friendly before the WC, with both teams playing with their best line ups). Then, just before the first game, he decided to include Tevez in the line up and make Messi play as AM behind 2 strikers, which exposed the team defensively.

In 1982, a team like Brazil could get away with playing the way they did. In 2010 and modern times, teams get punished even more for lack of balance and strong defense. Although, it should be noted that even Brazil got punished in 1982 by Italy and Paolo Rossi, and they also didn't make it to the semi-final.

 

Let me see if I have this right, Argetnina not having a great defense who were also very talented in attack is the reason Messi didn't score a single goal at the World Cup?



I've also heard Adidas sent him the wrong shoe size forcing the genius to play with swollen feet.

 

Actually you don't have it right at all but considering your lack of knowledge when it comes to reading in other threads I'm not surprised that was the conclusion you arrived at.

 

Wait for it......

lol. Try harder son, like Argentina should've in 1982 on a certain island.

OhhhhhhH!11!!! TOOOO SOOOON???

 

I searched for the archetypical example.

I can also call Holland92, which played with Rijkaard and Koeman at the back. Two natural midfielders. Van Basten played good in that tournament which helped him to win a third Ballon d'Or.


And Yonko,

Are you serious? Had Holland in 2010 really a good defence with Mathijsen and Heitinga? Has Germany with Mertesacker a good defence? You got to be kidding me. Really good defenders are currently scarce.

 

Another example:

Croatia in 1998 with Davor Suker. They had a few extraordinary midfielders and attackers but at the back it was so so (not among the best in the tournament at least - one of the CBs played at Derby County). They reached the semi-final and Suker became topscorer.

How many more recent examples do you want?

 

^ Wow, PuckVanHeel, tip of the cap, you are a football encyclopedia.

 

Messi.the great footballplayer.

 

I think another comparable(although not an exact match) recent example is that of Forlan and Uruguay in WC 2010 and Copa 2011 (Suarez was arguably better in this latter tournament), wherein they did not have a categorically better defence or midfield or even the coach, than what Argentina had.

In any case, looking at most greats' national careers, it seems that they scored a majority of their goals in major international tournaments in one tournament (it is close to 50% for most greats). Looking at Messi's playing position and age, that tournament would probably be WC 2014 or Copa 2015.

 

But so what about Holland 2010? They didn't win either, nor did "they leave their mark forever". They don't qualify as an example based on your requirements.

 

Without Messi, Barca almost lost to 20th-place Sporting Gijon last month at home in a match where both Iniesta and Xavi played 90 minutes.

 

Mathijsen, Heitinga and Mertesacker are not the best defenders individually, but at WC 2010 they played on top of their game, their teams played better defensively than Argentina and reached further in the tournament. But at the end both Holland and Germany were exposed by Spain.

Samuel was coming into the WC from a treble winning season with Inter, but he played like a walking disaster at the tournament. Is he normally better defender than Mathijsen or Heitinga or Mertesacker? I'm not sure, maybe he is, maybe he isn't. But he sure didn't play like he is better than them.

And it is funny how you talk about Van Basten at Euro92. You say he played well. Really?! I thought he played terrible. He didn't win the Ballon D'or that year because of his Euro. He won it because of his 4 goals vs Goetteborg. BTW, I think Stoichkov should've won the Ballon D'or in 1992.

Are you serious? Croatia's defenders played very well at that WC in 1998, until the semi-final when they allowed a right back (Thuram) scored two almost identical goals on them.

You see, you keep making the same mistake over and over again. It is not how good the defenders are in general, it is how good they play in the actual WC. Everyone knew before the WC and saw during the actual WC that Argentina's weakness is in defense. Germany took full advantage of that in the quarter-final.

All those teams you give as examples (Holland, Germany, Croatia) were organized. This allowed one individual from each team to shine - Sneijder, Muller, Suker. The organization of a team and strong defensive performances are the basis for players to shine in a span of 6 or 7 games.

 

As I said, I wouldn't call Uruguay's midfield/defence as being categorically better than Argentina's. They however along with Forlan and Suarez, obviously played out of their skins to get where they did in those two tournaments, something which the whole of the Argentinean squad obviously did not (including Messi).

I say the above because, if you consider Messi individually, as an attacker; considering that he is thought of as someone who can create a goal out of nothing, dribble past entire defenses, etc.; the fact that he was unable to score at all in these tournaments clearly shows that he unlike the Uruguay squad was obviously playing below his best level.

Lastly, the same team argument (which explains why Uruguay did better than Argentina) from above can be applied to his time with this Barcelona squad i.e. he is so successful with them, both personally and at a team level, precisely because they play so much like a 'team' and have played together for such a long time. Thus while his goals might not be a direct result of assists made by Xavi and Iniesta; they definitely are a result of the influence that Xavi, Iniesta and the rest of the Barcelona team and its tiki-tata system have on the opponents that he faces, while playing with them.

Lastly, let me reiterate that I do think that a player like him will have atleast one high goal-output tournament with his NT and looking at his age and playing position, that it would probably be one of the two that he plays in next for Argentina.