Marco van Basten - his years at Ajax

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by PuckVanHeel, Feb 4, 2012.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I only saw this:
    http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/italpoy.html

    No Kohler in both lists.

    Apparently, there was another award too.
     
  2. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    well this was just a prize from LOCAL sport magazine "Guerin" which is not very famous nor prestigious around the world ..

    Oscar del Calcio was more "official" of SerieA ... but it was only borned in 1997
     
  3. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England

    [Way to go straight to calling UEFA a load of "assclowns", mate!! ;)]
     
  4. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
     
  5. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England


    [That pretty much sums up what seems to be the positional ideal of the Brazilian-mould "spearhead" C-F/No.9 IMHO...]
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    What do you mean with "off the deck"?

    Did you see my PM by the way?
     
  7. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    while I agree with you and Puck about romario style and positon...

    Most often, people UNDERATED Romario passing, dribble and ball control ... as He was playing in the ERA that a #9 (spearhead CF) was dominant ... (90's) and some what it made him became LAZY as he was so skillful (just) to wait in the box ...

    Overall, Basten was more mobile and "look" more "all round" (in the late 80s_) agree than Romario (90a), but it did NOT mean Romario could NOT do the same .. well IMO
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I agree with you that Romario his passing is underrated but the same happens with Van Basten IMO, many think that he could only made spectacular shots and diving headers while in reality a top shape Van Basten was one of the most complete players I've seen in my lifetime.

    A famous example:
    Maybe you know his assist in the 1990EC final to Rijkaard. That was not an easy assist.

    It looks easy but it isn't.

    Anyway, I liked Romario too, more than Ronaldo for example. Romario had that bit more of a genius around him and as said, he as foreigner added something new to the game when he arrived in Holland. That should be in particular appreciated too.
     
  9. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    yes I remember that ...

    However in term of "playmaking" or direct assists, Ronaldo was just better than both Romario and Basten - it ;s just he was a bit egoist to play such games that often
     
  10. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
     
  11. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    in that case "off the deck" Basten is surely better than Romario and Ronaldo
     
  12. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England

    [You're rather missing what "off the deck" means, mate: it means a player leaping from, the ball coming off of, etc., the surface of the pitch IMMEDIATELY. The term that you're looking for seems to be "in the air" or "as an aerial threat" IMO...]
     
  13. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England


    [In regards to your question(s) on "RVN": I would say that when he played in the EPL w/Man. Utd. that he lined-up as a "complete" No.9 centre-forward. This is an article written by Alan Smith in "The Telegraph" fr. Jan. of '02 where he explains why "RVN" wore the No.9 on the back of his shirt:


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2428584/Van-Nistelrooy-emerges-as-complete-centre-forward.html


    This is quite appropriate since "RVN" just announced that he's retiring from the game here recently...]
     
  14. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    My apologies, the quote feature doesn't seem to be functioning properly...
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    RvN was a spectacular player before his knee-injury in 2000. He made many spectacular goals. Although he was technically not as good as Van Basten, he was a bit quicker in the first few meters.

    He was of course still good after his knee-injury, at United, but never reached the same potential IMO.

    I can see why you say that he was a #9 but over here the main criticism against him was that United (and the Dutch NT) played with 10 men, when having the ball. This criticism was even more applicable to Makaay though.
    I think many here see RvN as a hybrid between a #9 and a #10, with the 'needle' pointing to a #10. His rival Makaay was a 'pure' #10, IMO
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This are the moments I in particular remember when playing for PSV. His overall average was by the way the best since Van Basten in his 85/86 season. I made an overview of the averages somewhere in this thread.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YMUf19Y_b0M#t=116s
    (with Van der Sar in the goal of Ajax I see)
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-391141654430276718

    Bonus


    He made some more good goals of course, such as against Fulham, but these spring to mind.

    Furthermore, he is third on the topscorer-list of the NT, topscorer at the euros and all-time topscorer in the WC-qualification campaign.
    http://www.voetbalstats.nl/topscnedxi.php

    IFFHS - topscorer of the decade
    http://www.iffhs.de/?b90cc13ccf80390f403d4e007cda0a3ccdc4085fdcdc3bfcdc0aec70aeedb88384f02788b405

    He was born on the exact same day as Patrick Kluivert, for the ones who do not know that fact.
     
  17. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Both MacKaay and Nisterooy were no #10 material period ...

    Like Roy said, agree they are both typical "spearhead" Forwaard or goalscorer #9. Note that both can not shoot good from outside the box, nor they could do any good assists to other player ...

    In that "mould" Nisteruud was the leader in the group 1 of Scorer #9, followed by Vieri, Crespo, Inzaghi, Trezeguet, Mackaay, ... of late 90 to mid 2000's. And ... Ronaldo Sheva Etoo Kluivert Henry Drogba Ibra .. were different type group 2 of #9.

    From 2006 onward, the gorup 1 (#9) is dying out and dead by now. While many in group 2 were born with much less in shooting skillset and positioning skillset (in Torres, Higuain, Soldaldo, Balotelli, Yakubu ...)
     
  18. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    No, I mean a predator type of striker, like you said.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    On that last issue: the broadcaster put some videos online about him. One of them was an analysis of pundit Cruijff who said "He is a good goalscorer but a mediocre footballer."

    He elaborates this with examples during a match, such as a moment where Van Nistelrooij prefers to shoot with his right instead of finishing with your left. According to Cruijff, a "good footballer" had "stepped in between" [that is football-lingo for using one of your feet as pivot and 'shield' against the opponent] and made an attempt with the left foot; hence, the defender has no chance.
    He says, "if you look at Raul, who recieves the ball with his right, turns around his axis and plays with his left [to RvN], that is of a higher level."

    This in a nutshell and it is basically how many would see it. RvN his needle is closer to a 10 than a 9. Makaay was a pure 10, a pure 'predator', like you said.
     
  21. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England


    [Ah, you meant a "goal-scoring"-type of a No.10 striker then...]
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Sorry Mr. Roy but you once again confuse me with all these typologies.

    Have you seen the PM?
     
  23. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England

    [A goal-scoring No.10 striker essentially = a "predator" striker in a two-man forward line: the "striker" part is usually added because the term "No.10" standing alone refers to a more creative type of player...]
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes, in my eyes and the eyes of most Dutch, RvN is a hybrid between a 9 and 10, with the needle pointing to a 10.

    We also talked in this thread about some 80s strikers like Houtman, Bosman and Kieft; they were #9s and also a fair bit taller than RvN. They were not 'targetmen' though.

    The Belgian Vandenbergh was a #10 in the eyes of most, and I agree.

    Anyway, the article you pointed at sees RvN as a 'complete CF' but most over here would not see him that way. His rival Kluivert was way more complete. Just as Bergkamp when he was lined up as most advanced man (a pity btw that he wasn't included in the 20 years premier league team).
     
  25. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    VNR was a great instinct goalscorer thats all and that IT

    He could not do well dribbling and fairly good in ball control. He cculdnot shoot from outside th box . he hardly did good passings ... hence HARDLY a "complete forward"
    Agree, Basten Kluivert, Bergkamp were much more "complete" forward than VNR
     

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