Losing the League, the Cup, Europe and Karloski - The David Moyes Thread

Where do you get 26 points from?

 

Tumultuous is relative. if most teams had to go through our "turmoil" they would gladly take it.

Do not confuse change with turmoil. Not all changes are tumultuous. sure we had to go through a major change but automatically attaching the label "tumultuous" to it is a bit disingenious when the reason for the turmoil is due to our stupidity.

what we needed was a coach who was progressive or was capable of winning things or both. the club had money to spend, players who were champions, a structure in place to cover most of the important functions, owners who were themselves consistent (maybe not liked per se but you know where they are usually), a big pull in the market, well known brand. the only thing you need was a leader to sit on top of all of that. instead of needing another person to be there for 25 more years, take advantage of the fact that you have all the pieces already in place put forth from the last 25 years.

This is a personal opinion of mine but I think the idea that sucessful clubs will now have managers who have been their of long periods is being replaced by a paradigm that will see managers rotate out every few years. trying to find another SAF is like continuing to invest in fax machines now because your last invest over 30 years ago was a hit.

and i still dont understand why you are penalizing a manager astute enough to get loanees to fit his system when the move pays off....... I suppose he should have said "sod it, we are a midtable club and cant do any better, let me continue the tradition of crap like the other idiot before me" what would your criticism be then??

 

Except that Chelsea have never loaned players to Moyes, and what was specifically noted was Martinez's coaching style, and how it was distinct from West Brom, which was the other choice. It was explicitly Martinez's management that clinched it. Do I really need to find more evidence for you? Is google so hard?

You mean like Adebayor? Sure seems a lot of that going around. Besides, even if Lukaku doesn't stay in Everton, so what? He did this season, and 15 goals over 38 games isn't exactly Suarez territory. Darren Bent has had similar seasons ffs.

Oh, you remember. How nice for you. You don't remember well.

Chelsea also reached the CL final. So that's positive correlation. Clearly that means.........nothing.

You are correct on Bialetdinov, but why is Moyes taking Donovan on loan different?

In what world is Barry 10m? He's out of contract, or one year out of contract at 34 years of age! What, is Dalglish suddenly in charge of Everton? He's free! As for Deulofeu, in what world is he going to cost 15M? He's a 20 year old player with 6 starts this season. 10M is the maximum he'd be worth. So that's what, 35/40M, and only if they buy Deulofeu (which they most likely will not). As for the wages, you do realize they're currently paying wages for those players, right? Why would they suddenly go up - they're paying Barry's Citeh wages (or the part they're willing to).

That argument is just so utterly ********ing stupid. Everton took 3(!!) players on loan, one of which they can have for free (Barry), and another who made 6 starts. The notion that this is bad for them is downright retarded. Yes, Eveton will have to replace those players to do as well next year. But why in the ********ing world is it better to not finish 4th??? Why does losing those players on loan mean that you'll suddenly do much worse? By your argument, ALL loans are bad, because it's "gambling" - you know, the way Real Madrid and Arsenal and Liverpool gamble by taking players on loan.
Apparently, Moyes should be preferred because he had no ambition, and blew his transfer wad on Fellaini, a player whom Everton haven't missed at all.

Martinez clearly shouldn't be managing United, but his transfer policy in just one season blows Moyes out of the water.

 

How many goals did United score in the league the season before van Persie? How many goals last season with him? Hmmmm.............

 

Too many tough questions for a first year college kid.

 

I think RvP was obviously important last year, but he didn't have the same effect on you as Suarez is having on Liverpool this season (or even Ronaldo had for you at his peak).

 

Without a doubt. Suarez already has more goals and assists than RvP did last season; and might actually end up with ~50 goals+assists.

 

If Liverpool do win the league, he's the reason. The entire side works because he's having that good a season.

 

That's why Kaka didn't go to City is it? Or why the bulk of their "big" signings were initially those with baggage until they could offer Champions League football?

Must I point out that one of the best players in our history left for Spain or that many of our targets have gone there, Germany or... Chelsea??

And this was with us as champs competing in Europe with a legendary manager.

As for "playing better" with Mata and potentially scraping 4th if we beat Everton and Arsenal collapse...

Well I just pray you'vre right about us competing under Moyes because if he handles the rebuilding with half the competency of this season, it won't be ONE shifty year but multiple.

And we aren't as rich as you seem to think.

 

Fine by me. If players are more interested in the bright lights of London they are not the type of player we want.

 

Good lord that is a truckload of words when the reality is two short sentences.

Martinez is overperforming with an inferior squad.

Moyes is underperforming with a superior squad.

 

dbl post

 

It should be:

Martinez is overperforming because Chelsea, Man City and Barcelona artificially boosted his squad with loanees.

Moyes is underperforming because he failed to strengthen in two consecutive windows and is tactically suspect.

Fin.

 

All but one of those went to Real and Barca - which no club can compete with in terms of drawing power. You certainly have more drawing power in England than any other club and, when you do want, you can attract the best players - like Veron.

 

OKAY, so what are we going to argue about today guys?

I propose why Jose is really a poor manager because his team won yesterday??

 

Michael Essien, Arjen Robben, Gabrielle Batistuta, Jon Obi Mikkel, Marc Overmars, Paul Gascoigne, Alan Shearer (twice), David Silva...

Veron was an exception rather than a rule. United have pulling power but not so much that their name alone is an advantage outside the UK.

We've seen time and time again that all things being equal, wages and competitiveness trump our identity most of the time.

 

Robben wasn't a big name, Batistuta didn't want to leave Italy (and didn't), you weren't in for Essien when we were, Overmars wasn't a huge name, while Shearer is basically the exception that proves the rule (and you're going back 15 years for him) - the one English player that "got away".

The issue with most of that list is that you're simply not willing to match the transfer fees for foreign players as much as other clubs are. But if transfer fees were equal, I see no reason why you're no a draw outside of Real/Barca.

 

Did you read the original post that I was referencing?

 

Zlatan says hi:

 

Marc Overmars was a star player for an Ajax team that was considered the world's best at the time. I'm not sure why that makes a difference in any case though. We're discussing United's pulling power. Aside from perhaps Essien (we scouted him and Chelsea bid more than we were prepared to, IIRC) these are all cases where the player had a choice and went elsewhere.

Remember also that despite only having had similar pulling power to United for a short space of time, a number of players have chosen your team over us when it's simply been down to expressing a preference.

City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool offering Champions League football, I would argue are certainly more appealing than us right now.

 

Okay, I've read it now....and it's disingenuous. In fact your cherry picking of 26 points is nearing laughable.

Sure, we probably picked up more points because of class finishing...but to attribute every point where he got the winner\assist blah blah is just silly. Fact is, the make up of the team would have been different without RVP and another striker in his place might have also won us the game with a good bit of movement\link up\assist\finishing. We will never know, but to say take away every point you think he won us single handed, is making it look like you have no idea how football works.

 

How many times were we in the top two in recent seasons? And how close did we come to a league title the season before RVP arrived? You're trying to play down Fergie's final seasons to excuse Moyes's poor one.

In any case, as I've said previously, our deficiencies were not such that we were in need of a complete squad overhaul. We were actually just a couple of strong signings away from not only fixing our problems but actually raising our level.

Moyes didn't make those signings and while I criticise Woodward for his part in the summer failure, answer me this:

In what world does the man at the forefront of an organisation like Man United not have the balls to ask Woodward and the United board, what the hell they're doing making a pointless, degrading offer for a player like Cesc Fabregas?

You think Guardiola or Mourinho (or Fergie for that matter) would sit idly by on some international tour while some suit sandbagged them?

 

Which players were those? You weren't willing to pay the agents' fees for Hazard, and we simply bought Robben before you made your move (it was done in Spring, before the transfer window). Mikel is another issue, but surely that's not an example of a high profile player!
The truth is that until Hazard, we haven't really attracted high profile players that were especially desired by the rest of Europe. The few high profile players that we did buy, were older - like Sheva. The only one I'll grant you is Ballack, but we again were willing to pay him more. You can't argue that we're more attractive when the difference is that we're willing to pay more for a player or give them higher wages. The issue is that all things being equal, you're still a draw, and I think suggesting Liverpool is a bigger draw than you is very silly. They've now tried to buy Willian, Salah, Konoplyanka and Mikhtaryan in the last 2 seasons, and gotten none of them. Over the last two seasons they've bought Sakho (unwanted by PSG), Ilori, Mignolet, Aspas (remember him?), Luis Alberto, Coutinho, Sturridge, Assaidi, Borini and Joe Allen. Even if you wanted any of those players, do you really think they'd have gone to Liverpool if you had offered the same wages? They couldn't close the deal for Clint Dempsey!

 

I quite like Zlatan, the dude just wants to win and knows how good he is.