Lionel Messi - La pulga atómica - part II (r)

Re: Lionel Messi - La Pulga Atomica - part II (r)

I agree with Dr. Know on this. In international futbol due to the lack of time spent training and playing together it is much easier to work around a system than it is a player. The system is set for better or worse and for a player of Messi's ability, he should have a much easier time adapting than the other 20 odd players. You had asked me about some differences between Diego and Messi and this is one of the best. Diego was so good that he could adapt to any side he was on. Messi can do that but until he believes that in himself, he won't. As I've said before, this is part of the growth in futbol maturity that Lionel will achieve.

 

Re: Lionel Messi - La Pulga Atomica - part II (r)

From what I've heard, he hasn't really played that well since the Olympics. Jonas is the guy I'd like to see play out wide. He gives us a bit of Kily and Sorin which I think our side has lacked lately.

Honestly what constitutes Roman's style? He is more than capable of playing quick tempo but he is just as comfortable when slowing it down. I think with the youth Roman has played around it becomes more an issue of their giving him the ball because he usually makes the right decision from his ability to see things three and four steps ahead.

What needs to happen is a way for he and Messi to learn one anothers nuances so that each gains more space. When they together are in gear it really is fantastic to see. When one struggles so to does the other. Naturally this is assuming Diego starts Roman or even calls him up.

Really if you think about it the best way to get Messi comfortable in a system that might (stress might) mimic Barca would be to have Gago and Mascherano behind Roman with Jonas out wide and Messi on the other side pushed up further. Both Lionel and Jonas are very different players but can easily change sides and still be effective. What Jonas brings is a great engine and the ability to track back and defend. Until qualifiers start back up it will be hard to gauge how Diego will go with this team.

 

Re: Lionel Messi - La Pulga Atomica - part II (r)

How do you define Riquelme's style though? How he plays at BOCA and how he plays for the shirt really are different. Even though both use the enganche approach, it's how the rest of the team plays around him. The BOCA players seem to be more aggressive while with the national team they prefer to defer to him. With the difference in talent it is really odd to me.

I'm not sure using Gago as one of your examples was the best choice. His style along with that of Banega and Battaglia. The style of play of BOCA 5's have always been of compliment to Riquelme. One other thing you touch on is for Roman to "pass first", in order for those not to be wasted passes, players still have to move without or "show" for the ball. From my impression that doesn't happen much on the national team and Riquelme is not the kind of player that's going to make passes for the sake of making them.

In order for us to lift the trophy in South Africa we are going to continue to find a way in which Messi and Roman can have the side built around them. As good as the talent is we possess, a player of Roman's abilities is what is going to help minimize the extra defense teams are going to want to sacrifice on Messi. Diego throughout his career has been unorthodox in his approach to everything so maybe that fact will help these two turn into the dynamic duo.

I was sitting here with my wife yesterday and told her during the end of the Barca match that Messi was going to win it. I was right and at that moment I removed most of my question marks about Messi. Once he realizes he can do that consistently at any point of the game.....watch out!!!!!!!

 

Re: Lionel Messi - La Pulga Atomica - part II (r)

Well, we have to also realize that Diego played in Argentina until his 20's. Messi may have learned his futbol in Argentina but he left for Europe when he was still a kid. He is Argentine, but to some extent he's had to learn to readapt to the Argentine style of play in a way that Diego never had to.

I think Messi, because of the skills he adquired as a kid, is a natural to play our style of futbol, but he needs to get it all back. He needs to play longer alongside Roman and our other players who still feel our style, in order to have it come naturally to him.

My thinking is that in order to win the World Cup we need to play our style football, of course adapted to fit within the context of the 21st century, but we can't play just like the European and expect to beat them.

Our players when they go to Europe have to adapt to the European game, which may be a bit different depending on the country where they play, but I think they do add something different to their Eurpean team because of the way thy play. However, they are still playing within the context of the European game. But, when all the Argentine players get together, the game that emerges is different, and it should be.

I believe in our game, and I believe that if we play our game right we will create problems for the Europeans and we have a better chance to beat them. I think Pekerman (I mean the coach) was on the right track on this. That is what he was trying to achieve, and even though he made some mistakes, when it worked, it was glorious. The match against Serbia it all came together. But I think Pekerman doubted, and when things got tough, holding on to the lead against Germany, he hesitated to trust our game, he played it defensively, gave up the ball, and as a result we lost the lead and the tiebreaker.

But at his best, I think Pekerman was the closest proponent of what we could call the Argentine football for the 21st century. What he came close to achieving is what we need to aim for, and I hope Diego has this same idea in mind.

Some Argentine players, even those who left for Europe as teens, have our game come naturally to them when they get back together. Others don't, they lose it in Europe, and when they try to play our game, they don't respond anymore. That is why I think it is important for a coach to pick the right players. There is a reason why some of our players underachieve with the national team, while others thrive. The challenge for our coach is to pick the players who still feel our game, and to get them to trust that if they play our game, we will do well.

In Messi case, he is such a great player that you need to put him on the team no matter what. But it's important that he gets into the flow of the Argentine game, that he gets on the same page with his teammates. He has the foundations, the right skills which he adquired as a kid, but he needs more practice time with our guys, he needs more playing time with players like Roman, like Mascherano, like Gago, Kun, Tevez or Lavezzi, players who I know feel the game the Argentine way.

That is my feeling, that is the way I think we can win. We need to play to our strengths, and show the world what our football is about. And, even if we don't win, we will still at least be playing the football that I love and enjoy.
It is better than to lose anyway, while trying to be Italy or Germany.

 

Re: Lionel Messi - La Pulga Atomica - part II (r)

ASF very good post and I can't find much to disagree with. Leon you too were pretty spot on and clearly have just as an unfortunate memory of that match with Germany as I think many of us do.

I myself didn't have a huge problem with Basile's Plan A of a wide open game but it was the lack of a contingency plan that left me wanting. He was also reluctant to bring in different players in order to find cohesion. What I felt made the 86 side so good aside from Diego was that the players were chosen based on how they played together. Coco seemed to rely on popular names with the belief that if they are stars then they should rise us as stars. Clearly never happened.

In regards to emulating Spain, I think in many respects we mirror them in regards to talent and to a lesser degree style. I think where they have us is with defensive discipline. I hate the fact that when I watch us play I focus less on our attack as much as us getting spanked on the counter. It's almost as if I've come to expect it. If we can get the back line to not be so aggressive then I think we can be who we know we are.

 

Re: Lionel Messi - La Pulga Atomica - part II (r)

I'm not saying all the players all the time nor anyone in particular. Re-watch those matches and you will clearly see a lot of standing around. Forwards camping out in the corners not back tracking to receive balls. Messi actually is the only on that truly comes to mind when thinking about who made runs and who didn't.

Having watched Riquelme his entire career, he doesn't force passes which is hard to believe when considering some of the passes he's made. If he didn't play onto Messi it could have just as much to do with those passes being seen as low probability successes. That's his job isn't it? Solid distribution and no giving up the ball.

When Argentina plays well it's due to plenty of movement amongst all players when we don't you see a lot of the standing around I eluded to. Same really applies to any team playing or not playing well. No slight on anyone in particular, just how it has gone sometimes.

The best defense is through a sustained offense. In that respect I too was astonished. I understand Pekerman's thought process while not agreeing with it. Germany was able to push forward due to our essentially sitting back. It was a damned it you damned it you don't deal for the coach. It either works or it doesn't. In Argentina someone would have found fault either way.

 

Re: Lionel Messi - La Pulga Atomica - part II (r)

Hind sight is a wonderful thing isn't it?

 

Re: Lionel Messi - La Pulga Atomica - part II (r)

Right. Maybe we are being too harsh on Pekerman. After all, Germany had just that one big chance and they converted, so it comes down to fate sometimes. But, I'm not a fan of giving the other team the ball and the initiative, and that is why I'm critical of him. It was a net result of the substitutions and adjustments he chose to make. What was puzzling and frustrating was that it went against his own philosophy, which was netting good results.

 

Re: Lionel Messi - La Pulga Atomica - part II (r)

I would say that it is much easier for one player to adapt to a particular style, system or plan than say 10 or 20ish for that matter. Why Messi is playing for Barca over Boca relevant? True that the players in Europe seemed to get called upon before the guys back home but in reality how much of their European experience can be attributed to how talented they really are? Oh and Manso is still a pretty good player.

How do you quantify the speed at which a player thinks? Were all Zidane's red cards a by product of his thinking so fast or not thinking at all? Excluding the obvious attacking players, let's see what defenders in the selection are truly head and shoulders faster than their contemporaries in Argentina? Think about that one and try and quantify your opinion. Even though you state it as fact I think most of us know otherwise.

Let's touch on players returning from Europe and how much they think and move faster. Aside from Roman and Veron and to a much lesser degree El Cabezon, what other players have returned to Argentina and were so much better than the local talent? Keeping in mind that Roman and Brujito Veron are no faster now than they were before going to Europe or while in Europe for that matter and still the most dangerous players in Argentina proves how much you are reaching.

Off the top of your head how many other sides have consistently put up performances like ours against S/M? How often do you see matches like that in the World Cup in which one side completely dismantles the other? I'm not talking tiny nations but a European side with one of the best defenses coming into the games. If that is what you expect from every performance that's fine but plan on being upset quite a bit.

The only certainties of that Germany match are that Germany injured our keeper leaving a back-up to have to face PK's with zero prep time and our Coach made two personnel decisions which killed us.

What BOCA players has Diego shown any preference towards? How many did he call up for the Scotland match? What about the next friendly? Oh wait he hasn't announced that side has he? I'm not sure where this whole BOCA thing started with you as nothing Diego has done has indicated any bias what so ever. Lastly Higuain is good but playing ten times better? Their numbers are nearly identical aside from Kun player more matches in all competitions and being the focal point of his side. How would Gonzalo do if he was cast into the focal point of Madrids attack?

Spain played fantastic at the Euro's and clearly are playing better than any national team in the world. Does that guarantee them anything? Considering how little they did before the Euro I wouldn't be surprised if they returned to their tradition of underachieving. Let's see some results before we handing them the trophy. With the talent we had we won nothing in the World Cup and Copa, nothing is guaranteed. Not having Messi would indeed hurt our chances as you pointed out but don't sell the rest of the Argentine players short. Messi is no Maradona.