Liberty University Students to Mitt: "You're Not Christian"

As a Cornhusker, the only thing I have to say about Liberty is "Go Turner Gill!!!"

What does football have to do with Romney and Mormons? Nothing, right?

http://www.omaha.com/article/20120410/BIGRED/704109849

 

No apologies. I think this was excellent and very helfpul for me to understand.

I have alot of respect for your faith.

 

I'd cry a lot if forced to watch 5 episodes of Friends.

 

I hadn't thought about it this way, but it makes perfect sense. Spiritual growth and happiness is dependant on trying to better onself, ones family, ones neighborhood and the world at large. Personally I think one can do that without the religious trappings, but enough of that discussion.

 

The funniest part of this story for me is a recent conversation I had with my mom about my commencement. We were recalling how hot it was that day and she said she was amazed that the speaker lasted through the heat.

I have no friggin clue who the speaker was and what he talked about.

 

Ismitje is a heretic.

 

I graduated from college in 97 and I don't have any idea about our speaker, either. Some dude I'd never heard of and who no doubt had given a lot of money to the college to name a building after hi... uh, I mean for scholarships.

 

Supporting RSL doesn't make you a heretic.

But supporting LA or NY ... well...

What are we talking about?

 

Well, can we say that you are as Christian as Christians are Jewish?

After all Jesus was Jewish.

 

And Paul.

 

If you're a Democrat and an Arrested Development fan, you better not get within a thousand yards of that temple. They have orders to shoot GOB fans on sight.

 

I think Jesus of Nazareth was born and died a Jew.

But I think you've got a more difficult argument to make with Paul.

Born a Jew? Yes. Died a Jew? That he arguably didn't die a Jew is perhaps actually the true historical importance of Paul.

(No, we're not talking ethnicity here.)

 

I think the "You're Christian if you accept Jesus Christ as your savior" thing misses the real world forest for the theoretical trees. Religion, no matter what anyone tells you, is about traditions. The founding myths, the dogma, the figures of worship - none of those is as important as the traditions. You join a church, not for the teachings, but for the traditions that connect you to the community and past generations.

Which is to say, the easiest way to answer the "Are Mormons Christians?" question is to ask, are the LDS traditions meant to provide a connection to Jesus Christ? Or are they meant to be something different from mainstream Western Christianity?

 

Except a Mormon wouldn't say that. Salvation does not come from Jesus, and his death on the cross, but rather from their life history of good works.

Now, Christian theory, as practiced by 21st Century adherents, is changing, and I know many people who call themselves Christians who are offended by the notion of salvation as coming through Jesus' crucifixion (and its a long story as to what it is they believe). I wouldn't call them Christians either.

 

Val, I'm pretty sure Ismitje is a Mormon...

 

That's a blanket statement with no basis except what I expect is your personal experience. Which is fully valid. I am born again, and was born again relatively late in life. The decisions about which churches I joined were made for the teachings, not the traditions. OK, my first church was the base chapel where I was stationed, and I did choose that one because I wanted one that was sensitive to the demands of the military.

Traditions are important to be sure, but lots of us join for the "dogma" as you would call it.

 

I was pretty much afraid of that as soon I posted. Too much background noise in the house today.

Ismitje: check your PMs

 

It's from my (admittedly limited) study of sociology.

Also, my convenient out is that it describes how people generally choose their religions and doesn't account for individual cases that might be outliers.

I'd argue that your decision was based on how the teachings informed the traditions, but then it would end up sounding like I'm caught in semantics, and I have the aforementioned out.

 

I don't think I'm an outlier. I've spent a lot of time in a lot of different American churches, so that is the basis of my experience, and how and why people choose the church/denomination/form of faith matters a lot to me. Yes, the simple change of a tradition, like whether the priest faces the congregation while offering Communion as opposed to standing with his back to the congregation (a major issue in the Episcopal church in the 90s, for instance) can get people hot and bothered. But changing the emphasis on the teachings gets people just as riled up.

I also think that semantics matters, so the distinctions you make are important. I just don't agree with them.

 

Heathens. The lot of you.

 

Every Mormom I know would say that to you. In Mormonism, there's two levels of salvation: eternal life, gifted to all by the atonement of Jesus Christ, and exaltation, which requires both atonement and grace - and all we can do besides. That entails things like good works, charity, tithing, fasting, attendance at church, baptism, repentance, temple attendance, and the like.

It is true that the nature of the godhead differs in the Mormon belief system. It's quite different in fact.

What Mormons really lack is a hell in the sense of that in which other Christians believe.

Ultimately, I personally don't really care whether someone else thinks I am Christian or not, though it clearly matters to the Church as a whole. I don't ascribe membership in any church - or any faith for that matter - as equal to "qualifying" or not. Salvation is to be worked out individually with fear and trembling after all (thank you, Philippians!), and the LDS vision heaven suggests to me that there will be many more agnostics, non-Christians, and athiests sitting pretty than there will be Christian folks, Mormons included.

(that's right: eternal life for agnostics, athiests, Muslims, Buddhists, animists, Jews, Zoroastrians, and {almost} everyone else in heaven)

To me, the Liberty University thing says a lot more about the intolerance and narrowmindedness of the people there than it does about my belief system. I certainly am a very different brand of Christian than they are.

 

FWIW, I know many mainline Protestant clergy and academics who would argue that hell doesn't exist. I have also had some of these tell me that they don't broach the topic in sermons because they fear their flock wouldn't understand.

 

It's a debate within evangelical circles currently as well.

There was a book written by Rob Bell entitled Love Wins arguing that hell, as we generally think of it, doesn't exist. [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Love-Wins-About-Heaven-Person/dp/006204964X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335492297&sr=8-1"]Amazon.com: Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived (9780062049643): Rob Bell: Books[/ame]

The counterpoint to that was written by Francis Chan (a book I'm actually reading now) called Erasing Hell. [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Erasing-Hell-about-eternity-things/dp/0781407257/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1335492365&sr=1-1"]Amazon.com: Erasing Hell: What God said about eternity, and the things we made up (9780781407250): Francis Chan, Preston Sprinkle: Books[/ame]

 

The whole "Mormons don't drink tea, coffee, booze, etc." has nothing to do with religion, it has everything to do with 19th Century attempts to stem the illicit activities associated with the sale of these commodities on the frontier.

It, like so much of the Mormon dogma, is complete horseshit.