Liberty University Students to Mitt: "You're Not Christian"

Say you ask me my faith, and I say "I accept Christ as my savior, and am a Christian." Cool beans, end of discussion - you appreciate me as your ideological brother. If I say to you instead "I am a Mormon. Hence I accept Jesus as my savior, and am a Christian" then you say nope, sorry, you aren't. It's a fascinating difference to me.

 

Re: So yeah, sorry for blaspheming.

In my evangelical days, Mormons were consulted cultic; Catholics were not.

 

Thanks for your thoughts. I don't want to derail this thread, which started as an observation that conservative college kids can be just as judgy as liberal college kids about who speaks at their commencements, and what it says about an important Republican constituency in a general election.

I'd be happy to continue via PMs if you would like, assuming PMs will still be around in the new and improved BigSoccer.

 

Matthew 3
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

Matthew 7
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Matthew 12
33 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

Luke 6
43 “No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

Galatians 5
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

 

I'd have to say most of the posters here ARE Christian, minerva...superdave is, I am, ASF is?, etc...

 

Is that what this is ?

Let me ask you a question....if I came on these boards and insisted the world was flat because a person who lived 2000 years ago said so and you and others questioned my beliefs, would that be bashing ?

You should understand something....there are alot of very normal, very nice, intelligent people who do good things everyday who believe that all religion is a myth.

I have no problems with people believing in religion or any myth they want. Two things about religions bother me: prosleytizing and using religious beliefs as a basis of treating others unfairly.

If you believe this is bashing, that is your right.

I believe this is a good exchange of ideas sprinkled with some incredibly sophomoric and blashemous humor.

 

in other words, don't listen to what they say about what they are and what they profess to be. look at what they do.
sure, you may find a sour or rotten apple or two on an apple tree (we all occasionally fall into sin), but if you see a pattern of consistently evil deeds, you're looking at a thorn bush, not an apple tree.

 

not the same thing. it can be proved that the Earth is not flat. whereas Christianity, like all religions, is a matter of faith and belief, not provable facts.

 

But what is the key to salvation ? Declaring yourself Christian ? Or declaring yourself Christian and acting Christian ? Or not declaring yourself Christian and and acting Christian (a la Mother Teresa) ? Or declaring yourself Christian and acting Christian with an occasional lapse ?

One can see how confusing it is. That is why some people find it easier to have a Pope/confessor to tell you how your are doing.

 

in my mind, what you declare yourself to be is irrelevant.
what matters is what you believe (regardless of whether you declare it or not), and what you do.

 

Good point.

Of course the flat-earther could just retort and say "I dont' believe in science -the earth is flat - that is what god told me."

Either way, I am sorry you felt this thread constituted bashing. I hope that you are solid enough in your personal beliefs that the lack of faith of others does not anger you or make you feel defensive.

From a personal perspective, these discussions are of interest to me because, as I stated, I have a hard time understanding those with strict religious beliefs as most of my friends and family are heathens.

 

That is your personal belief and I think it is reasonable. In fact if all religions and religious leaders stressed good deeds as outlined in the Old Testament, New Testament and Koran, the world would be a much better place. But, I am sure you will admit, that other christians dont' share your belief. For them its simple:

Accept christ = salvation
Dont' accept christ = damnation.

Actions dont enter the equation.

 

I'm not particularly offended by anything posted on P&CE.
I only get a little irritated when people neg rep me because they disagree with me so vehemently on some point that they feel a neg rep is necessary. but that doesn't happen often, so it's all good. I don't think everyone was bashing in this case.

 

you're right. not everyone who calls themselves a Christian accept the teachings of the Bible. some only accepts the parts they like. but those people need to read James.

James 2:
4 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that —and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

in other words, good works don't save you. but they are an evidence of your salvation. if your life shows no evidence of salvation (i.e. good works), then your declarations and professions are irrelevant.

 

Dr. Jay already covered my rebuttal. Thanks.

 

Wow. This has been one of the most respectful and interesting discussions of Christianity and religion we have seen in this forum . . . ever. I'm surprised anyone would see it as "bashing."

It's always nice to come on here and actually learn a thing or two, and I can honestly say that I have in this thread. About Evangelical Christianity and about Mormon (or is it "Morman" ) Christianity.

 

Thanks and I certainly can understand where you're coming from.

This has been the biggest failure of the evangelical church for the past few decades, IMO, that if you say a magic prayer, and try to avoid "big," noticeable sins, you're good to go. Or, to put it another way, manipulate Jesus into giving you fire insurance and then live a life identical to before you supposedly met Jesus.

It's wrong. It happens for a variety of reasons--perhaps someone who doesn't legitimately know better, a charlatan preacher who wants to feed his ego by padding his numbers, etc. etc. But it's the biggest reason the church has been, for the most part, impotent for several generations. This, for lack of a better term, false doctrine, has been so prevelant (sp?). The church is useless if it's the same thing as the rest of the world with just a little sprinkling of Jesus. The end result is that there are, in all likelihood, quite a few people in protestant churches who think they are Christians that aren't following the person of Christ and as a result their lives haven't changed.

This is much more complicated to address, obviously, and I"m not sure the space is here to do it effectively. First off, I certainly agree with the Biblical interpretations. As Val said earlier, there are big differences and small. Or, Backbone issues and rib issues. Speaking in tongues or sprinkling versus immersion for baptism--rib issues. they're important, but don't really matter in the whole scheme of things. Whether the Bible is true, whether Jesus was who he claimed to be as the Son of God, whether there is only one, Triune God and not a bunch of gods or if we can become gods--Backbone issues. They change the faith. With denominational differences, you see, the vast majority of the time, rib issues.

Regarding the specific examples you gave, it's important to know that things have changed after Jesus' death on the cross. In essence, the sacrifices that the Israelites offered once a year and being obedient to the law that God gave them (not the man-added stuff that Jesus spoke out against) is how they were, for lack of a better term, "saved." Once Jesus died, he became the final sacrifice, fulfilling the Old Testament law. In fact, Jesus was alluded to many times in the Old Testament, starting with when Adam and Eve were removed from the Garden of Eden.

I say that to say this: we're no longer required to follow the Old Testament law in order to receive redemption from God. Paul talks about making our bodies a living sacrifice and Jesus said to take up your cross and follow him. Now, our sacrifice is fully committing to following Christ. So, in terms of the animal sacrifices, etc. you see in the first 5 books of the OT, that's not necessary anymore. Same with the not sleeping with a meunstrating woman. Jews were to be ritually pure and they couldn't go on the temple mount or into the tabernacle if certain things happened, such as touching a dead body, sleeping with a woman that was on her period, etc. These weren't "you're doomed" if you do them things, but were, before you come to worship God, purify yourself things.

Many regulations mentioned in the OT were simply for hygiene and logistical reasons: The latrine being a certain number of cubits out of camp, don't drink the blood of an animal, if you have a contagious disease, quarantine yourself outside of camp until it's over, etc.

In terms of other things you mentioned such as crop rotation, etc. I believe that those are still good ideas, but not necessarily to be followed by Christians. In my opinion, anything that a Christian "should do" or "shouldn't do" is mentioned in the New Testament since Christ fulfilled the Law with his death on the cross. Paul goes into this in much details in Galatians and Romans. That's why most evangelicals will view Homosexuality as something that is not approved by God--because it is mentioned as such in the New Testament and why we don't wear tassels on our tunics--because that's not mentioned in the NT.

Also, it's important to keep in mind that some aspects of the OT were written specifically for a specific people before Christ's death and before modern technology. It may appear to be picking and choosing if we're not obeying the OT law, but it's not really. It may appear to be picking and choosing if we don't allow the land to lie fallow every 7 years. However, back then it was a good idea to let the nutrients return to the soil. Now with fertilizers, etc., it's not necessary to be productive. It certainly doesn't hurt to let it lie fallow, but since we are able to produce crops regardless, that specific instruction for that time isn't necessary. It's the same with latrines--obviously with indoor plumbing we don't have to have latrines 1000 cubits out of camp, but at that time it was necessary to maintain hygiene.

Obviously, this is all a very basic simplification, but hopefully it has been somewhat beneficial.

I obviously agree that you can't pick and choose what's in the Bible, and everyone, regarding of how literally or figuratively or how conservatively or liberally they view the Bible, does that to a certain degree. (if not in doctrine, in how we act in the heat of the moment.) And, to a certain extent, that's okay in the sense that we're not perfect and that Jesus through the Holy Spirit is always changing us and making us better. In the process of becoming more like Jesus (what Christians call "sanctification") we will, over time, do less picking and choosing. However, God works on each person differently. The big issue though is to not be the same person you were. I think the hallmark of a real Christian is that you, as a result of being changed from the inside out, will look more and more and act more and more like Jesus than what you did 1 year, 5 years, 10 years ago, etc. The picking and choosing is what the Bible refers to as sin. As you grow in your faith with Christ, it happens less and less and the grace afforded by Christ through his death on the cross covers our inadequacies that we have even when walking faithfully with Jesus.

Sorry for the lengthy post.

 

I haven't viewed it this way at all. Sure, there's been a few posts that have had a little fun, but I think most discussion has been honest and that any questions, such as Dr. Jay's, have been very sincere and thoughtful questions. I think that's always to be expected in serious discussions of any subject.

 

The Mormons rather helpfully had to go and add a book to the Bible in order to explain their faith.

So that argument doesn't work for you in this specific case.

 

just that time of the month.
I'm a little sensitive and emotional.
now I'm going to go eat a gallon of ice cream, watch 5 episodes of Friends, and cry a little.

 

LOL. Gluttony, eh?

 

don't Catholics believe in the conversion of the murderer on the cross next to Jesus?