Lance Armstrong thread [R]

Discussion in 'Cycling' started by Real Ray, Sep 8, 2008.

  1. aveslacker

    aveslacker Member+

    Ajax
    United States
    Apr 2, 2006
    Old Madras
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    It was just a question! :eek:
     
  2. aveslacker

    aveslacker Member+

    Ajax
    United States
    Apr 2, 2006
    Old Madras
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    I'm not gonna lie, I'm a total Garmin/Slipstream/Chipotle/H30 fanboy. I'll be rooting for those guys, followed by Lance and Columbia.
     
  3. Dead Fingers

    Dead Fingers Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 22, 2004
    St. Paul, Minnesota
    Club:
    Minnesota United FC
  4. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    What's a day with out some sort of Lance news? Today Lance says he'll gladly ride second or third if that is how things pan out. He still maintains that this is all about his fight against cancer. Just yesterday Johan went from putting forth Contador as the sure number one to saying the leader will be whichever rider is at his best. This coming season is going to be a blast!

    http://www.velonews.com/article/85584
     
  5. prowazekii

    prowazekii Member

    Jun 21, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  6. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    I very much doubt Armstrong can manage a Giro-Tour double. If he was capable of that, he would have attempted it in his prime. It's also one of the reasons why I still rank Merckx ahead of him, he managed that feat four times.
     
  7. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    He didn't in the traditional cycling countries. (In fact, there are those who believe he actually hurt the sports popularity in those countries) What he did to is popularize the sport in some formerly untapped markets.
     
  8. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    I very much doubt any clean cyclist can pull of the Giro/TDF double. As for why he never did in the past was more to due with a single-minded obsession with Le Tour and the obvious knowledge that winning the Giro would leave him with very little for Le Tour.

    As far as your ranking The Cannibal over Armstrong, just get in line behind every other knowledgeable cyclist. As for Merckx accomplishing that feat four times, keep in mind he is the same person that famously said "no rider ever won a Tour de France on pasta and water alone". The Cannibal is in my mind the greatest cyclist ever but what does that really say about him?

    Who are "those" that believe he actually hurt the sport in established cycling countries? As far as bringing popularity to certain countries, which would those be? Certainly not the USA, the sport established a pretty loyal following when Lemond won his first and to some it started with Alex Stieda winning the first stage by an American ever. Lance certainly did his part to help grow the sport in this country but in truth plenty of credit needs to be given to the invention of cable television. Imagine the wank-fest had Lemond had the luxury of cable tv?
     
  9. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    Are you going to claim that the TDF and cycling in general didn't get a huge boost during and after Armstrong's seven victories? Whether or not the same would have been true for Lemond had he access to the same media as Lance is really not the issue here. He was the right man at the right time.

    As for your point on doping, I don't believe any tour victor rode cleanly since the early 1960s. If I recall correctly, Merckx was seriously implicated (as in "caught) at least twice, not even counting the time he was kicked out of the Giro.

    I'm not just talking about the Tour-Giro double though, I'm talking about winning any single event out of the big three (Tour Giro Vuelta). Frederico Bahamontes claimed that many of the guys he would routinely own in the mountain stages during the 1950s started beating him out of nowhere during the 1960s. That's where my "early 1960s" timing comes from.

    *edit* I'm not claiming there was no doping use prior to this, just that this is the period where it really became the wide-spread problem it still is today.

    Doping was already very much the norm when Merckx rode his first Giro. It doesn't take anything away from his accomplishments. Since, like they say, you'll never turn a donkey into a race-horse.

    I know this notion might offend some people, but the idea that these guys not only ride out the tour, but also beat other guys who have been caught in using performance-enhancing substances is a bit naive. How are you going to bridge the 10-15% gap in performance EPO and its more modern counterparts gives you in a sport where winning and losing is routinely a matter of mere seconds and minutes? Either you are the biggest freak of nature ever, or you use yourself. There is no middle ground. Training and preparation alone won't allow you to make up for that disadvantage.
     
  10. Real Ray

    Real Ray Member

    May 1, 2000
    Cincinnati, OH
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    It isn't so much "doping" (in the larger sense of the word), but the type of doping that is the dividing line in judging the eras. EPO changed everything. As one old timer put, when they took drugs (cortisone in particular) it was to continue as the riders that they were. EPO turned them into something they weren't physically.

    Now on one level, that's a tiny hook to hang your hat on vis-a-vis the ethics in sports. Amphetamines and cortisone surely are aids and perhaps previous champions would not have been able to continue without them. But relative to EPO and blood doping, they are different and the effect they have had on the peleton since the late 1980's has been telling and dramtic. I think before EPO a "clean" rider still could compete and win. Post-EPO, I don't think so. And this is why you have to have healthy skepticism re: Lance Armstrong.
     
  11. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    If Armstrong was found out to have used doping during his tour-success I wouldn't think any less of him. He was just doing what all of his peers were doing. That aspect of the sport had been sick long before he even turned pro himself.
     
  12. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    Nobody is claiming that Armstrong's run didn't have an impact on the sports popularity. What I did claim is that cable television particularly in this country was as big a factor if not the biggest. Remember that in Lemonds day the most exposure he received from the media were newspaper articles, Sports Illustrated and if something more exciting was available ABC's Wide World of Sports. You have got to see the connection

    What is naive is to believe that through the use of EPO alone you are going to out perform clean riders or other dopers for that matter. While EPO does aide in the recovery process, it still does nothing for the mental aspect of the sport. You can be the fittest rider but if you are mentally weak then all the dope in the world will do nothing for you.

    Some athletes are those freaks of nature you referred to. Look to the discipline of mountaineering and the accomplishments men like Reinhold Messner, Peter Habeler, Christoph Profit.....did above 8000 meters. If those men can accomplish what they have in far more dangerous environment and physiologically demanding endeavor then I believe that some riders can do what they do. To me that is not being naive it's just not being close-minde.

    Using Lance as the point of reference, his accomplishments had a huge impact from his training. During his run, his sole focus was Le Tour and nothing else. The races he did enter in the Spring were solely glorified training rides. With that type of focus and freshness it really isn't a stretch to believe he could dominate the peloton the way he did.
     
  13. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    I was wondering about that comment myself. If anything the traditional cycling countries talk about the good old days before Armstrong because he set a trend of concentrating on one competition only and traditionalists don't like that one bit.

    Americans with all due respect I hope you can understand that these types of comments are likely to piss off the traditional cycling nations. Even tour riders from as far back the 1930s have legendary status over here, please do try and respect that. Armstrong can be credited for further professionalising the sport, but if there'd never been an Armstrong, the Tour would've been as popular as it ever was.
     
  14. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    I actually think that the fact that young and inexperienced riders can come on to the scene these days and immediately compete for prizes at the highest level is a sign that things are changing. This would not have been possible five years ago.
     
  15. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    I am not American but I would like to touch on this comment. Having grown as a cyclist in this country I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of cyclist in the US very much respect the heroes of Europe. Your legends are the same legends that most Americans and this Argentine still look to for inspiration.

    I sense and please correct me if I'm wrong is that your perception is that knowledgeable cyclists in this country see Lance as above the legends of yesteryear. The truth is many may see Lance as the greatest TDF rider ever but will never view him as the best ever because he chose to not go after the other grand tours or more importantly the spring classics. I agree with you that Le Tour would still be the greatest show on earth had Armstrong not raced but the truth is his dominance did expose the sport to people that may have never cared about our sport.

    Things are changing in this sport and in truth they have been changing for quite some time. The younger riders benefit from many advancements in all facets from diet, training and equipment.

    Look at the differences in frame/component weights. You can take a steel frame from 25 years ago and compare it to carbon fiber and the difference is amazing. Take that same frame and compare it to a steel frame today and it is still night and day. I have a good friend that rides a Waterford steel frame that is as light as my CF Bianchi. In the mountains and over long hauls that difference in weight is astonishing. The same can be said about diets and training and how they've changed.

    At the end of the day an experienced rider will always have the advantage over the younger rider. Knowing when to draft, when to go off the front or when not to respond to an attack, those are the things that make the difference.

    Sorry for the ramble but I love talking about cycling and on the bikey forums you just have to deal with much to much arrogance. Cheers.
     
  16. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    If I was mistaken I apologise! I might have misperceived the comments made about Armstrong.

    I think the fact that young talented riders can switch over from the youth tours to the grown-up ones and immediately make an impact is probably a sign that the stricter doping controls coupled with the personal medical passport are working. Competition seems to be more evenly balanced overall, also impacting the style of cycling, which is why I think Armstrong will struggle. In Armstrong's days the leading team was allowed to completely dictate the course of the race - them days are over. If Armstrong wants to win another tour he'll have to deal with far more young upstarts than he's used to, and he'd have to cycle far more aggressively and depend less on his team mates.

    I think all cyclists (and their medical teams) are constantly trying to work their way around the doping rules, and there's nothing wrong with that. How many of us mere mortals drink coffee regularly? Take vitamins? Energy drinks? Take medication for their asthma? Even things that we in normal life think nothing of are classified as doping, while sleeping in an oxygen tent is not!
     
  17. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    No apologies needed Johanna just two people exchanging opinions.:)

    I'm just not quite sold that the doping controls are really working yet. Sure more riders are getting popped but I still feel it is a far from perfect system and until the UCI utilizes a system that requires more than probability the controls will never be "working". I've read the UCI's rules towards doping and I just can't have faith in a system that settles for only a "high probability". As far as the younger riders gaining a benefit, I personally feel it is more coincidence than anything else.

    I agree that we are seeing more balance in the peloton but with all that said, CSC still dominated the TDF last summer and did so in a manner that none of Lance's teams did imho. With the teams that are currently at the top of the peloton, Lance comes back with a team that just may be the strongest side even more so that CSC, Lotto, Columbia.......

    The upstarts really don't concern me much because for all that youth brings, maturity and decision making don't really blossom until a cyclist hits his or her 30's. A few find it earlier but most don't. It is that one intangible that always gets overlooked and I never understood that.

    As far as Lance having to cycle more aggressively, I really don't see that as an issue. His exploits in the mountains speak for themselves. When he felt it was time to go he went and nobody and I mean nobody really could stay on his wheel. By all accounts, he is already at a top fitness level which is pretty scary. He may have been out of the saddle for a couple of years but how much could he honestly have lost?

    If you say it's alright to try and circumnavigate the rules, then fine by me. I'm no hypocrite, I smoke pot and during the season I cleanse regularly just so I don't get popped. Surprisingly some events still test for marijuana. As for the rest of the substances mentioned, I take my share of supplements and drink coffee like no one else plus I take cortisone (waivered) for my lupus and have never been in trouble. As for the oxygen tent, that is just a bit to weird for me.
     
  18. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    Here's the thing. A typical tour stage in the Armstrong days would be 150 kilometres of nothing and 70 kilometres of attacking. His team would lead the peloton and dictate the tempo until they gave permission almost for someone to attack. That just doesn't happen anymore. The hierarchy is gone and it's attack from the very first kilometre even by the small teams. Remember Armstrong waiting for Ulrich when he fell? Doesn't happen anymore either. Menchov this year lost minutes in a completely straightforward stage because the peloton broke up owing to the wind. Like I said the style of racing has completely changed and you have to stay on your game from the very first minute. You can no longer depend on your team mates do keep the peloton in check, not even when your team is extremely strong.

    Besides, by also doing the Giro, Armstrong is never going to win the Tour, and I in fact think it underscores his ambition level. If this was all about getting another Tour win he'd never have done the Giro.
     
  19. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    Here's the thing, I really don't see that much has changed in how the race is conducted. Certain stages will be nothing more than glorified club rides while others will be the mano a mano racing I think we all love. First things first, keep in mind that we are less than three full years from his "day". Two tours is hardly enough time to re-establish a hierarchy. I'm sure we can all put forth our 10-12 riders we think are the best GC grand tour guys in the world and I'd expect many of those lists would have the same names in different orders. Does that not count for a hierarchy? Maybe not the same caliber as Lance, Pantani, Ulrich...but a hierarchy none the less.

    As far as Lance and the Giro goes, yes he's stated it's the prize he wants but the tour has been his single-minded obsession. What he states to the press and what is actually reality can be miles apart. If he appears to be a genuine GC contender in Italy then we'll know what approach he takes in France. If he suffers then it becomes very clear what is true objective is. Every time in the past in which Lance has suffered he was doing nothing more than posturing for the peloton or media.

    I certainly don't see Armstrong as a clear cut favorite to win another Tour but anyone that dismisses him is pretty foolish. Two things Lance does really well are time-trials and climbing. When he was winning tours, he wasn't just good but dominant in both disciplines and I wouldn't expect he's lost that much. Even if he did, he is still likely as good as the rest of the elite which speaks volumes to his abilities. Where Armstrong leaves the peloton behind is the fact he is clearly the most intelligent rider out there. That last bit is often the difference in a precious few seconds.

    Like I posted before, this will no doubt be an exciting season.
     
  20. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=cycling&id=3768825

    Lance says he'll be using a vastly different approach to the Giro compared to his TDF tactics. This race goes straight into the mountains so we'll see just how "back" Armstrong is fairly quickly. By the looks of things he'll be riding for Contador in the summer.
     
  21. aveslacker

    aveslacker Member+

    Ajax
    United States
    Apr 2, 2006
    Old Madras
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    I just found this website with an interesting set of pics of Lance's training regimen/life etc.

    You can get there by hovering over index and clicking on Lance's Comeback.

    One thing that surprised me: Lance is absolutely ripped.
     
  22. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    He's a pro cyclist, did you expect him to be flabby?:p:D In all seriousness, I saw him at Whole Foods within the last year and he appeared to be much thinner. I wonder how long ago some of those pictures were taken. I know one was from the Tour de Gruene just a couple of months back and the guys that I know were there never made comments about his physique.

    The fact he seems buffer than what we've come to expect is interesting because it could change the way he rides. If he is heavier which I'm sure he is, then his whole power to weight ratio is completely different which in turn would require a different tactical approach to racing.

    Sweet link by the way thanks!
     
  23. prowazekii

    prowazekii Member

    Jun 21, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    He is more muscular now than during his earlier riding days.
    Some nice photography on that site as well.
     
  24. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    Perhaps, the extra muscle is a tactical strategy to take on the Giro?
     
  25. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Re: Armstrong is reportedly set to return to competitive cycling in 2009.

    I dunno. With the Giro going into the mountains in the first week it just doesn't make sense. I'm pretty sure he'll return a very formidable time-trialist so if he gets attacked which I'm sure he will, it'll be when the road starts pointing up. In that respect it pays to be lite.
     

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