This thread is turning into a farce. How referees or anyone can say with a straight that that PK wasn't handling is beyond belief? It's a textbook case of making yourself bigger. If that Seattle defender was a good and smart defender he would put his hands behind his back. You see that all the time in Italy or Europe. Instead of blaming Geiger or Keane for that PK Seattle should blame their defender for defending like a girl in a U12 recreational game with his arms flapping like an octopus. Just ridiculous.
Hmm. I've oft criticized the over use of making oneself bigger or unnatural position and the lack of true clarity in some of the instructions. But so far as I can tell, this is the kind of context that USSF looks to -- the arms are taknig away the passing lane away from the body in a way that creates an advantage for the defender. While I see why some don't like it, I think USSF is telling us should be called -- and I think it gets called elsewhere, too, far more often than not.
Listen, Red Star makes a good point. Use your common sense. Think of what you've seen called as a pk and where this falls in that continuum. For Gods sake this a pk in every match, in every league, on every day, in every country, on every continent in the world. Now we want to reinvent the wheel in MLS? Simply because some have the Websters Dictionary handy as a reference to point to the discrepancies and ambiguities in the definitions of "deliberate" and "unnatural"? As a good friend and ethnic league colleague says "I don't know why that's a pk but it looks like a pk, smells like a pk, feels like a pk, therefore it IS a pk."
Yes - this was probably the most obvious dive I've seen on TV in a while. The defender was already on the ground and Montero took a step or two and then fell over his legs.
Well, duh, but it's not automatic. If the arm is out, it's a way of judging intent, but by no means does it guarantee that the action was a deliberate attempt to handle the ball.
+1 I don't see how anyone can argue this is not a PK. Johansson was flailing his arms all over the place. Unfortunately, he invited the call.
No defender in his right mind would ever attempt to deliberately handle the ball, nor is that the issue. The issue is whther or not the hand was deliberately placed in an unnatural playing position.
I've seen stuff like this not called before. As is, "deliberate" is open to interpretation. We have a set group of standards we're told to judge whether an action is "deliberate" and we're asked to judge whether the arm is in a "natural" position. If, in the opinion of the referee, the arm IS in a natural position, it's not a PK. I'm the referee, thus I'm the opinion that matters in the games that I officiate. Same goes for everyone else. Also, to aek chicago, you need to learn your physics. When you push your left arm down, the opposite and equal reaction is that the left side of your body is pushed up wards. Thus when you're leaning to your left and righting yourself, you throw your left arm down just like the defender did. You're center of mass stays the same, but the orientation of your body changes.
Mr Dong, I know my physics quite well, at least from what I remember in my hs honors course. Physics isn't the issue though bc as we've stated before, deliberate is a term of art....not to be construed literally. Now if you want to cop out to the "I'm the referee and its my opinion" mantra, knock yourself out. Doesn't look like you're getting much support in this thread.
Heh. Geiger makes me crazy. I think his foul recognition is often suspect, but especially when it comes to cautions and ejections. I think he misses on those a lot. Yeah, I stated that part about the second hand badly. What I'm saying is that if it's been determined by the official that the hands were in a "natural" position relative to what the defender's body is doing (which Geiger doesn't believe, but which I'm contending were) then the hitting of a second hand that was in a natural position is no worse that it hitting the first. That said, now that I've been able to see it in HD, I think MrRC is right that there's really no way to tell if it hit the second hand. His hand makes no movement in reaction to being struck and the ball doesn't change spin or trajectory. I'm also not convinced that if it doesn't hit his left hand that it wouldn't have hit his hip instead. Not square on, but deflected off his hip/butt. By the time it strikes the hand, the hand has returned almost all the way to the body. Anyway, water under the bridge. I'm trying not to focus on this call as much as on the idea of what is natural or not and how, somehow, "natural" has become conflated with "close to the body."
Agreed. I was surprised not to see a caution there. Montero rarely goes wheels up like that for a call (Johnson? Yes. El Flacco? All the time. Montero basically in his head thinks he can score on anything, right or wrong, and so rarely flops.), but that was a clear case. My buddy and I were talking about that on the way back to the car. Geiger was basically telling him he took a dive but chose not to caution, which I found odd.
1. Thank you for bringing in the sexist comment. You should be proud of yourself. My 13-year-old state champion niece appreciates it, too. I need to remind her not to play those rec league games anymore. 2. Somebody somewhere someday is going to have to explain to me how running around with your arms behind your back is "natural." Try it some time. I have. In games. It's not. Defenders don't do this because it's good defending. They do this because the handling rule has been systematically misapplied and so they have to. If what you're saying is that the defender should put himself at a disadvantage by seriously limiting his own agility in the most critical part of the field in order to make sure he complies with the rules, then the rules are being misapplied.
On a lighter note, did anyone notice Magee and Beckham telling all their teammates not to encroach prior to the PK? http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-11-18-sea-v-la/highlights/206365 Geiger's reputation has--finally--preceded him.
It's not a cop out. I've defended my position with the physics of human motion. For me, refereeing isn't an art, it's a science. And there are a couple of posters that support my view point. MrRC, for example, said this: That's pretty much my position. It's not conclusive that the ball hit his right hand. Geiger didn't see the right hand contact. Based on the position of the left hand contact and the motion of the arm in a natural motion to maintain balance, it's not a PK IMO
That's the whole point, holding your arms pinned to your sides is NOT natural, much like placing your hands out away from you isn't a natural playing position. Taken LITERALLY, neither makes much sense. Applied in a soccer context, the way the whole rest of the world has applied it for as long as I can remember, it makes all the sense in the world. But I forgot, we here in the US are going to reinvent the soccer wheel with Websters Dictionary in hand. says who? Yes, thats exactly what we're saying...it is what it is...and its been that way forever in the entire rest of the world. The intent of the Law was to prohibit playing of the ball with the hand. Not intentional handling, just handling.
Then I suggest you stick to refereeing kiddies...because you just might get killed doing any serious adult games.
Ya that is not a penalty. What's he supposed to do with his left hand, tuck it behind his body which goes against all the laws of physics? Not sure why he has his right arm way above his head though, he was just asking for the ball to hit there.
There's no need or place here for this sort of attack. You're more than capable of defending your position without it.
I didn't attack anyone, simply offered some helpful advice...for his own well being. You know it and I know it. I'm sure Mr. Dong is a capable youth referee, but THAT type of predisposition in an adult game would be VERY serious to his health and well being.
And so would calling a penalty such as this one. Notice how Geiger almost didn't make it out of CenturyLink alive....now imagine if you called this in your local Hispanic league game. I've already been assaulted once before, so forgive me if I'm not going to call something that is only about 50% a penalty.
1.) You obviously did attack me. I'm not quite sure why you can't just defend your position with arguments rather than insulting other individuals. 2.) How is calling refereeing a "science" a detriment to my ability to referee adult games? You have to consider the psychology of the players. You have to understand the physics of motion and what actions are reckless or dangerous. You have to use angles and geometry to achieve the proper sight lines that provide ample depth perception from distance. Psychology, physics, geometry, it's all science and math.
The Hispanic league is EXACTLY where you call it.....the Hispanics want EVERY bit of hand/ball contact called. Now I can see why you've been assaulted in a Hispanic league...you're not very well versed in what the expectations of the players are. Coming from a guy who works Hispanic leagues EVERY single week of the season. Btw, I just got a sneaking suspicion that Geiger has handled quite a few contentious matches in uncontrolled environments in his career. Just a hunch.