Klinsmann Interviews Dec 2012

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by SamsArmySam, Dec 11, 2012.

  1. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    This was argued a lot in 2006 when il Bruce said that it was silly to think Latino kids were going undiscovered. IMO looking at the number of American born Liga MX players, Bruce has been proved wrong. Still, Bruce had no qualms playing Latino players himself.

    So to sum it up. I don't believe that Bob or Bruce has ignored Latino talent. I think that they have always been given fair shots. Klinsmann has just given them a little more. That's all. However, and this is a big however, there is a lot of undeveloped Latino talent out there and it is a huge untapped source for MLS and potentially the USMNT. But that's a development issue and not a USMNT issue.
     
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  2. LouisZ

    LouisZ Member+

    Oct 14, 2010
    Southern California-USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Although I never said JK was pandering the latin players, why are we bringing up BB? True he tried these players before and deemed them not ready. What is wrong with JK trying those same players? some may have improved, those that haven't go back in to the "not ready" bin. I'm glad JK is trying everything instead of taking a previous coach's opinion.
     
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  3. LouisZ

    LouisZ Member+

    Oct 14, 2010
    Southern California-USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    is that the game where a scotland's defender was guarding the goal line in a running play just inside the 18? I wouldn't put too much weight on that game for a true guage of our performance. The following game vs Brazil was more realistic but I did like the way we came out to play.
     
  4. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

    Jun 23, 2006
    Very balanced response.

    My issue has been, from day one, that JK clearly didn't know the talent like he said he did. Think that has been proven, even by JK's own admission.

    Nothing wrong with trying players LZ. It's just when u try players who have never shown they are capable at a decent level, for any consistent time, or if u use players that have never shown in their careers they can play the way he tried them.......continually. There is a difference between trying and batshit stupid.

    There was plenty of that early on and the fact that it was incredibly obvious to many across this country speaks volumes.

    We can go on like this forever, but he is moving forward in the right direction and I haven't been this interested in our actual team since the WC.

    I'll say what I have always said, no matter who the coach. Our talent isn't great and we over rate players for various reasons continually. While all fans do this we tend to be incredibly naive in how we do it.

    Part of the culture here but it does no one favors...coach, player...u name it.

    No one who knew our talent well would have done what JK did with a lot of the players he did early on.
    That wasn't trying knew things, it was a waste of time.

    He did what I wasn't sure he was capable of TBH.....he has learned and adjusted. Great sign for a coach, and a big plus there.
     
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  5. Jeff Bradley

    Jeff Bradley Member+

    Jun 3, 1999
    Manasquan, NJ on the beautiful Jersey Shore.
    Club:
    Le Havre AC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Look at the rosters of the academy teams and the US U-20 teams on down. Every cycle the pool becomes more and more diversified in terms of ethnicity and background. I don't think too many "rich, pampered, undeserving...cliche, cliche, cliche" kids are getting a whole lot of time at the highest levels of youth soccer. Doesn't stop half of the "trainers" who have coached my kids from saying things like, "you could find a team of busboys and waiters who could beat the national team."

    That myth will live on forever.
     
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  6. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

    Jun 23, 2006
    Having grown up in NYC playing for BW I can go to any ethnic neighborhood where they will have some player who is clearly better than anything the US has to offer...at any age group.

    No, it will never die Jeff.

    It's why I get very amused at what goes on here.

    You should be a proud uncle. It's absolutely disgraceful and pathetic to remember the absurd threads about Mike.
    Ignorant, dumb and proud. There was a lot of that.


    I still chuckle about how Mo Edu and his top notch passing and offensive ability was being held back! Now that Bob is gone he will be set free! Funny, funny stuff. It's nothing against Mo mind u. He is what he is and can help the Nats if used correctly.

    It's the blind idiocy of so many......and it was idiocy.

    Gotta admit I luv that stuff.

    BolF...Najar wasn't a citizen and wasn't gonna be anytime soon FWIW. I also said that when we do find a talented player we will know immediately, and we will probably lose him...because he isn't a citizen or Mex money and prestige is much better than ours if they are kids with Amex heritage.

    These gems will be blatantly obvious.
     
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  7. Jeff Bradley

    Jeff Bradley Member+

    Jun 3, 1999
    Manasquan, NJ on the beautiful Jersey Shore.
    Club:
    Le Havre AC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was in Spain interviewing Giuseppe Rossi and we went to lunch with the photographer who was doing the shoot. We're talking soccer and the photog, a self-proclaimed "huge soccer fan," says, "The US will be a joke as long as the coach is allowed to play his son. What has the coach's son ever done to deserve that spot? What college does he even play for?"

    So, I say to the photog, "Well, the coach's son went to Holland when he was 18, played there for three years and now plays in Germany, in the first division..."

    I wink at Rossi, who almost spits out his food.

    Minutes before, Rossi had been telling me how Gattuso had been raving about Michael before the U.S. played Italy in the Confed Cup.
     
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  8. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    Can't believe you left out the part about the coach's son helping to get the 2005 MetroStars into the post-season.
     
  9. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You may have misunderstood my post. My mention of BB spoke to the fact that the players JK selected were "legitimate" candidates from the pool who had already been vetted and capped by the prior coaching staff.
     
  10. deuteronomy

    deuteronomy Member+

    Angkor Siem Reap FC
    United States
    Aug 12, 2008
    at the pitch
    Club:
    Siem Reap Angkor FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Since you have such a recent commitment around those who might be creating strawmen arguments, I would just as soon you keep me out it. The positions that you regularly want to assign me to argue about, are entirely inaccurate and really drags the quality of discussion down. I believe it is more than a bit inappropriate that you persist in doing this.

    Thanks and best wishes.
     
  11. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    It's a bit moot. No American player is Chelsea quality. The one at the highest spot (Dempsey) is still a step below Chelsea. Since the strongest Liga MX teams are about even with the weaker EPL teams (teams Chelsea routinely trashes 3-1 or 3-0), the result is expected.

    Still, Liga MX is a clear step above 2.Bundesliga (to anyone watching). My League Strength Comparison Chart (I try to keep it updated) can probably explain it better:

    La Liga...|--------------------------------------------------|
    EPL..............|---*--D------------------------------|
    Bundesliga....|------J-----------------F---|
    Brasilerao.........|----------------------------------|
    Serie A..............|-------B-----------------------------------------------|
    Ligue 1..........................|-------------------------------------------|
    ZON Sagres..............................|------------------------------------------------|
    Primera (Arg)...........................|--------------------------------------|
    Supreme (Ukr)..............................|---------------------------------------------------|
    Eredivisie........................................|--------------------------------------------|
    Liga MX..............................................|-C------*------------T------------|
    SOGAZ (Russ).....................................|--------------------------------------------------|
    Categoria A (Col).........................................|-----------------------------------|
    Primera (Chi)................................................|-------------------------------------------------|
    Jupiler (Bel).....................................................|------------------------------------|
    Championship.....................................................|---------------------------------------------------|
    TIGO (Par)..............................................................|----------------------------------------------|
    Segunda (Esp)...........................................................|------------------------------|
    Serie A (Ecu)................................................................|-----------------------------------------------|
    2.Bundesliga...................................................................|-------------------------------------|
    Superleague (Gre)..............................................................|-----------------------------|
    MLS.........................................................................................|-------------------------------------------|
    Serie B......................................................................................|------------------------------------------|
    Primera (Uru).............................................................................|------------------------------------------|

    * = Chelsea & Monterrey.

    D = Dempsey (TOT). J = Jones (SCH). F = Johnson (HOF). B = Bradley (ROM). C = Castillo (MON). T = Torres (TIG).

    From my chart, Johnson is not much higher than Castillo. Torres, on the other hand, is a clear step below. Note is not player quality, but the strength of their respective clubs.

    There is a big diff between being a key player for Schalke (a Top 5 Bundesliga team), and being a key player for Hoffenheim (relegation zone fodder). Just as there is a big difference between being the LB in the Mexican Liguilla Champs (Tijuana), and being the 'armador' in a team in the bottom half of the table (Tigres).
     
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  12. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You made the statement below:
    and I called you out on it. If you make another such asinine statement I will again call you out on!
     
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  13. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    I do actually like this chart.

    But there is no "overlap" (in this chart) amongst the EPL and MLS?

    How does one explain the likely move of Espinoza to Wigan, or the successful loans that Donovan, Henry and Keane have made in recent years?

    Or is this chart more about the overall "club/league" quality than it would be about the individual "player(s)" quality?
     
  14. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    It's not player-strength chart, but rather Club Chart. For those arguing that any European team is higher than any Mexican team. That's not the case.

    Of course a player can be too big (or too small) for his club. Like Landon in LA (or in MLS in general).

    PS: Put it other way, were Hoffenheim and Tijuana to play on neutral ground, the most likely result would be a tie. Which doesn't mean Johnson and Castillo are equals. Only that both are part of clubs of similar strength.

    On the other hand, were Schalke to meet Tigres, Jones's team would murder Torres's. Which (again) doesn't mean Jones is much better than Torres (it doesn't mean he is not, either).
     
  15. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    See, this is what I don't get. People are arguing that JK wanted mexican-american players over teh MLS counterparts because (most peoples guess so far) everyone thinks it was because he rated them higher, and probably just better players overall. False.

    JK brought these players in hopes that they would be able to put into work, his style of play faster, than guys who come from MLS (other than guys from RSL who play a similar style, thats why beckerman was there). Now it may appear that way because most players from Mexico that are american are hispanic... but they're there because of how they play (not to say it's better than their MLS counterpart) not the color of their skin.

    See, you're only seeing these players in 'fifa ratings', as an overall product, not as a link in a chain. Many guys who were 'better' at a certain position, didn't work right off under JK's system. He had to bring in a more 'flawed' mexican counter part to get the ball rolling, to give an example. Beckerman is the best one, and second is Fiscal. Both phased out, but servesd a purpose early on.
     
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  16. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    You must be one proud uncle! Mikey is killing it in Italy! I wouldn't be surprised if BIG clubs come a knockin' if he keeps it up.... I could see him in the colors of Milan like he's said he's wished since a young pup. ;)

    I'd prefer Real Madrid though, if I had to dream. :p
     
  17. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    I love my club, but frankly RM is often an Elephant Cemetery. The prestige is so huge, that being part of the club is achieving the pinnacle of futbol. So they just stop trying. I wouldn't want a young, stellar player to go there too early. Look at Higuain, Benzema or Dzeko for that matter.

    A hungry player better stays below the top, aiming for greatness.
     
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  18. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

    Jun 23, 2006
    I'd say u are being reasonable except for the general speed of play and physical aspect of the better Euro leagues.

    This, IMO, makes a big difference. It is a different type of pressure that see in Mex.

    Now, to be clear...he deserves another shot, and while stats are a useful tool, they are just a tool. My eye test tells me Edgar can be had against Euro type teams, not even just the top ones. Until he shows different I will believe that, but no way in hell is anyone gonna tell me the guy I have been watching is a better defender than either of those two right now.....and I don't have an overly high opinion of the Bliga guys either.

    I just don't have that high of an opinion of the Mex league on the world stage. I have watched to much of it and while good it's got issues also.
     
  19. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

    Jun 23, 2006
    I think some just can't handle the insane expectations, fans and press.
     
  20. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I can understand this if you're using the Chelsea vs. Monterrey game... the pace and pressure they put on Monterrey looked like a adult team vs. U17. But taht's how it is in england. They win games like that. Chelsea just have speed. Monterrey are pretty good, but you took off one of their weapons through Suazo being hurt. He single handidly got them there.

    Mexico while it's a low pressure league, is good pat producing guys with good touch, vision, and speed. Don't forget, many guys who are on thre superior Mexico NT play in house, and learend their trade in that league. I don't see how our guys can't be different (our mexicna americans).

    Also, I think it's mentally what happens to mexico once they leave concacaf/the americas. They have had issues in that competition (club world cup) every time I see them play. America, a power house, totally bombed when they were there. Monterry, bombed. A good Atlante, bombed. This good Monterrey side, without their star striker...bombed.

    Then you look at the mentally stronger South American counter parts (minus internacional that year) and they never had the same 'owning' as this mexican side and past ones have had. Look at Estudiantes almost beating Barcelona. LDU of Ecuador giving Man U HELL with barely a 1-0 win (manso was the man). The Brasilian sides always show well, or the Boca Juniors of Riquelme and Palermo who beat a STRONG real madrid in 2000 I believe.
     
  21. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

    Jun 23, 2006
    Disagree. I absolutely saw what he wanted to do....the players simply weren't good enough.

    You can see the coaches wishes, and where he wants to be with regards to an overall product.....and still see the players he had simply couldn't do it.

    That's what so many have trouble understanding.

    Most of us weren't dumb, tactically clueless, unsophisticated cretins who couldn't see the desired result and plan.

    We saw that it couldn't be done with the players he was using because we KNEW THE PLAYERS and their capabilities!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Trust me...u have it wrong here my friend.
     
  22. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

    Jun 23, 2006

    Remember, I said the top guys in the Mex League. Cream of the crop and they now move on to Europe, unlike the past, where they adjust to the speed of play or come back for their paycheck and comfort.

    The above average and average guys in Mex who stay there are what they are. Not that big of a deal on the big stage.
     
  23. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

    Jun 23, 2006

    Was told there were a dozen Tabs when I saw him play with Kearney. No big deal.

    Claudio...any semi pro in Croatia is better than him.

    Hate to say it, but couldn't argue about Mikey W. Nice guy, but I thought he was the 4th or 5th best guy on our youth teams when I watched him.
     
  24. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    Is that chart saying that the Brasilera is roughly equivalent to the Premier League, minus the top 3 or so teams?

    I guess I need to start watching more Brazilian league soccer.
     
  25. LouisZ

    LouisZ Member+

    Oct 14, 2010
    Southern California-USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think you are missing something very important in your equation...It is not just how good the player is but how well it fits in to the team's system. Case in point, Valencia (MU) he is a good player but not great, he just happens to fit in to their scheme. Same thing with CHICHARRITO, MU needed a great poacher he fits the bill for them. Even in teams like Barcelona, you have players that fall in to the same category, it is called ROLE PLAYERS that all teams need.
     
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