Kiss MLS Goodbye?

Discussion in 'St. Louis' started by residentbenchwarmer, Nov 26, 2009.

  1. residentbenchwarmer

    residentbenchwarmer New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2007
    Location:
    Chesterfield, MO
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Country:
    United States
    Montreal's all but assured of the 19th spot if they can get Saputo Stadium renovated, and David Beckham has the option of owning the 20th team:
    http://web.mlsnet.com/mls/events/ml...&content_id=7707120&vkey=mlscup2009&fext=.jsp

    It's highly unlikely that someone of Beckham's star power is going to come to a mid-sized city like St. Louis, which leaves us without financing and back at square one in terms of MLS again, as well as MLS being in love with Beckham and this board's perceived slight that MLS has shown St. Louis (myself included, admittedly). Furthermore, Cooper seems committed to the NASL at the moment and even says that the levels of competition between USL/NASL and MLS is about equal, with the only difference being that MLS has the marketing power:
    http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/da...ans_for_professional_soccer_team_st_louis.php

    Thus, it seems like we have no advocate for MLS expansion, if everything continues down this track and MLS stays put at 20. Thoughts? Should these words be treated just as words and no more? Should we hope that Cooper's just trying to talk up his new league, that Garber is lying through his teeth as usual, and that Beckham will develop itchy feet again and head back to Europe? Should we hope that Kansas City/D.C. doesn't get a stadium deal and they consider moving here (more likely for KC than DC, though I don't like taking teams away from fan bases)? Or hope that Dave Checketts eventually decides to sell his remaining share with Salt Lake and is able to help Cooper in St. Louis, if he decides to make St. Louis his new base with the Blues and his pursuing of the Rams?

    I know we have the NASL/Athletica to concentrate on at the moment, and today being Thanksgiving I am thankful that we finally have professional soccer to see, but one still can't overlook the fact that MLS is still the top league in America, and however much we feel that MLS has led us on, I still would eventually like to see St. Louis get an MLS team.


  2. time4wine

    time4wine Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2009
    Location:
    St. Louis
    Club:
    St. Louis Lions
    Country:
    United States
    good thoughts and questions, I've been asking myself the same lately. I saw Garber on Fox Soccer Report and when asked about expansion and getting the league to 20, he mentioned 19 with the possibility of Montreal, but left the question of #20 in the air, sort of a let's wait and see. I'm wondering if he wants to see what the NASL can do as far as success and attendance in the next couple years and then evaluate the situation. Maybe he even has a city like St.Louis in mind and is hoping that the new team does well and maintains a large turnout and someone like Checketts does come along. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Until then, go _______!! St.Louis______Forever!!
  3. Cville K C

    Cville K C Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2008
    Location:
    Collinsville, IL
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Country:
    United States
    I see three factors here:

    1) The league could hold it against St. Louis and Cooper that they started this league. Let's face it, the MLS will consider this an "outlaw" league. Right now, the public message MLS seems to be sending out is that the MLS doesn't get it, but they don't care anyway. I have to believe that secretly, they have to be a little ticked and possibly even feel a little threatened. More competition for the limited talent pool doesn't help them.

    2) If St. Louis just blows people away with great attendance, the MLS has a history of picking its expansion teams from cities of other leagues if they show they can draw well (Portland, Vancouver, etc.). If St. Louis continually packs in fans, the MLS can't just ignore it. Well, I guess they can, but they usually don't.

    3) Time. St. Louis won't have a long time to prove itself. If it doesn't have good attendance at the start, there's very little chance of the MLS being interested. Time is running out for numbers 19 and 20 (it probably already has run out for number 19) and there won't be that much more expansion.

    Personally, I thought that St. Louis was finished as far as an MLS team goes after the decision was made to choose Portland. I really haven't changed my mind any, but if St. Louis could consistently draw 6-8 thousand for this new team, the MLS may have to take some notice. I think that's a longshot.
  4. FrankMiller

    FrankMiller New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    This seems a bit out of left field. Why would MLS consider NASL an "outlaw" league any moreso than USL-1? It's just another second division league.


  5. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    MLS will not stop at 20.
    Teams need relocating.

    MLS is cooperating with NASL. They do not see it as an "outlaw" in any way.

    http://www.indyweekblogs.com/sports...lby-wellman-expect-at-least-10-teams-in-nasl/

    Vancouver is going to continue with a NASL team even after they move to MLS.

    MLS would not allow this if they saw the league as "outlaw" or competition.
  6. Cville K C

    Cville K C Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2008
    Location:
    Collinsville, IL
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Country:
    United States
    Because it represents a new level of competition for them. They were dealing with whatever small problem the USL caused them. Basically, the USL amounted to a small pain in the neck. The MLS was slowly eliminating the better USL markets by expanding into them. The NASL could be a bit of a greater threat. Probably not that great, but it's something new they have to deal with. Perhaps, outlaw was too strong of a word.

    Agree with the relocating part, although I think MLS will fight tooth and nail for that not to happen, unless it comes down to a stadium issue. You're also probably right about the not stopping at 20, but I think that 21 thru 24 are so far off in the distance that it won't happen any time soon. I don't think Vancouver keeping the NASL team is set in stone yet. That may yet change. We'll see, but much as we have seen in the past, what the MLS says on the surface, and what they really feel and how they deal with things behind the scenes are two different things. I think that MLS would have been far happier for the USL to remain as it was and there be no NASL.

    I like the fact that we are getting a team, but I really believe that we won't see an MLS team, certainly not in my lifetime. When it comes to soccer in St. Louis, I'm just not believing in happy endings at this point.
  7. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2007
    Location:
    Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Country:
    Nigeria
    Beckham may end up simply buying a stake in the Galaxy and moving on with that, so it may not even be an expansion club.
  8. futball fan

    futball fan New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Location:
    slc, ut
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Country:
    United States

    sorry but i think it would take more then that to make mls take notice,
    about 4 thousand more;)
    i would have hated to see you get a team because, at the time it would have been RSL, but, now they aren't going anywere i hope at one point you do get a mls team
  9. residentbenchwarmer

    residentbenchwarmer New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2007
    Location:
    Chesterfield, MO
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Country:
    United States
    True, but how much is Philip Anschutz willing to give up just to satisfy Beckham? He's been the owner since day one, and I find it hard to believe that Anschutz would give up part of his share, if at all, just because a player wants to own a team, kind of like how the Chicago Bulls weren't willing to sell part of its team to Michael Jordan after he retired the second time despite being the greatest basketball player of all time.
  10. flamepruf

    flamepruf New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2009
    Location:
    Jackson, MO
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Country:
    United States
    KC,

    I disagree on the MLS seeing the NASL as an "outlaw" league. Whatever perceived gripes from fans, the MLS is seen as Top Dog in the US. Any chance of USL-1 gaining that status ended long ago.

    Now if anything, the MLS wants viable partners to create a 2nd division that works with it, not completely against it. Let's face it, MLS and USL-1 have long worked to basically work against each other.

    NASL has a chance, coupled with the fact that many of it's teams are going or wanting to go into MLS, to create a true 2nd division level here in the US. That's a plus for both leagues.

    Not only does it give the NASL a bit of legitimate talk in the sports media world, but the MLS and NASL will have created a pathway for talent along the way.

    Something that MLS and USL could have done long ago if they'd stop bickering with each other (not choosing sides myself in the matter).

    With regard to any slight to MLS via Cooper...Look, STL did NOT have a team already in place, nor any major show of support. Coopers funding and plan, maybe had holes in it. You seem suspect of Portland, I'm more suspect of Vancouver, but regardless, at the time, STL did not have the ways and means to grant an expansion team.

    The MLS has done what the old NASL didn't do, LAST. Because it took calculated risk, not just risk. I think STL and Atlanta are probably the best shot at new markets. But the MLS doesn't want to see teams fold and renew over again (yes I know it's happened), compared to what the USL has gone through over the years. It's the only way to stay stable.

    I do not blame the MLS for not granting a license for an unsure product (STL). Should the new NASL prove a large attendance, yes, I see that weighing heavily upon the MLS brass on expansion.

    In regards to the Beckham model. Many ppl have speculated Maimi? [talk about money down the drain]. Simply because Beckam and his Posh's lifestyle. Who said you had to live where you have a team? I'm sure that if Beckham does buy a team (and I DO think he will have a stake), it'll be in a market that MLS want's to hit most. Would that be the Southeast or Midwest? To early to tell. But it's not like Beckham is going to close his eye's and point to a spot in the US to figure it out.
  11. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Checketts could always move them to join the Rams/Blues. ;) :p
  12. Cville K C

    Cville K C Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2008
    Location:
    Collinsville, IL
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Country:
    United States
    flamepruf: With regards to pro/rel, you still have the same problems with that in the US that you've always had. People paying 30-40 million for their franchise aren't going to vote for a pro/rel system. And the MLS can't chance losing its best markets temporarily in a television deal, because they drop to division two. Personally, I believe that the pro/rel system may never happen in the US. Even those who are extremely optimistic know that any possibility of a pro/rel system is beyond the foreseeable future. Can you imagine if the teams are as planned and say Los Angeles and Vancouver-MLS get relegated and say Vancouver-NASL and St. Louis or Carolina gets promoted? I'd love to be in on the meeting where the MLS explains that when negotiating a television contract.

    While the old NASL ceased, it did last 17 years, with the last 8 years having average attendance over 10,000 (admittedly skewed somewhat because of a few franchises). The MLS isn't over it's growing pains yet, although it isn't in any danger of failing.

    futball fan: With regards to attendance, the St. Louis-NASL team will play in a stadium that only seats 6,000 and may expand somewhat for the new team, perhaps to 8-10 thousand. I don't think they will be able to draw 10,000 to 12,000, because at least for the short term, the stadium will not hold that many. I don't think they will draw that well the first season, because they simply don't have enough time to market the team. After that, I don't know. As successful as Portland's franchise has been in USL, they have averaged between 5,000 and 10,000 over the years, reaching over 9,000 for the first time this season. Vancouver averaged a shade over 5,000 this season.
  13. flamepruf

    flamepruf New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2009
    Location:
    Jackson, MO
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Country:
    United States
    KC,

    I'm not for any pro/rel system, and that's not my angle in wanting a true partnership/link between any Div I and Div II soccer leagues.

    I'm more interested in the marketing and promotion of US soccer as a whole and opportunities to grow that presence with 2 leagues that can work together to take advantage for the benefit of both.

    Just wanted to clear up any idea that I wanted pro/rel which is not the case.
  14. Guy Fawkes

    Guy Fawkes New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Location:
    St. Louis
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Country:
    United States
    Does anybody really see us getting over 3 thousand a game for this new league? I don't. 8 thousand a game sounds ridiculous to me.
  15. time4wine

    time4wine Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2009
    Location:
    St. Louis
    Club:
    St. Louis Lions
    Country:
    United States
    if they add more seating and the league and team are decent (a little better then USL1), then I see them getting 6k-8k a game, personally.
  16. Guy Fawkes

    Guy Fawkes New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Location:
    St. Louis
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Country:
    United States
    I'd say that's about right to start off but after a year, I'm not so sure.
  17. SiberianThunderT

    SiberianThunderT Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2008
    Location:
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Country:
    Spain
    Athletica, with their playoff game, averaged slightly under 4k in attendance per game IIRC. So I think expecting 6-8k for the men's team is completely believable IMO (as cool as I think it would be for STL to view women's soccer roughly the same as men's, I find it hard to believe men's soccer wouldn't significantly outdraw women's). And considering Athletica's attendance went up consistantly starting around game 5 or 6 (out of 11 home games), I think the effect of "a novelty wearing off" won't factor in much at all; whatever the men's team draws the first year, I would expect the next year's attendance to be around there or higher, assuming the league as a whole does well.
  18. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Anything over 7000 would be looked at as a great success.

    Problem: Soccer park capacity = 6,200.
  19. Buzz Killington

    Buzz Killington Member+

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2002
    Location:
    Lee's Summit
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Country:
    United States
    I thought there were already plans to expand it....
  20. SiberianThunderT

    SiberianThunderT Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2008
    Location:
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Country:
    Spain
    Both Cooper and Timmermann have, at different times for different reason, mentioned Soccer Park's capacity being expanded. Dunno if anything's been solidified yet. If there isn't an announcement in the next couple of weeks, I would say we can probably expect Soccer Park 2010 to be the same as Soccer Park 2009, as the last time I drove by (I live very close to the 270/44 interchange) I didn't see anything being done....
  21. FrankMiller

    FrankMiller New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    If all they're gonna do near-term is add bleachers behind goals, that wouldn't take long right?
  22. SiberianThunderT

    SiberianThunderT Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2008
    Location:
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Country:
    Spain
    True, I guess that wouldn't take very long.... I guess I was under the impression they were talking about something a bit better/more permanent than that. Though maybe not. Anyway, considering how all the fields are spaced at Soccer Park, if they wanted to just 'add enough bleachers behind the goals' to significantly raise capacity (say by 2-4k), they'd be putting bleachers on top of the other fields there.... There's not much room behind the main field's goal lines for bleachers there.
  23. dmelsh

    dmelsh New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2009
    Location:
    Lawrence / St. Louis
    Club:
    AC St. Louis
    Country:
    United States
    Here is an idea I had to expand soccer park. It would lower the field and move it a few feet to the east. This would allow for more rows of bleachers to be added to the building/concession area. You would then mirror the bleachers for the opposing side. Next adding bleachers to the South behind the goal which could be for the Eads Brigade. The wall to the North would also make a place for a cool sign (ex. AC Saint Louis)

    [​IMG]

    There are two pictures on my website (if I loaded it right). So let me know what you guys think.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
  24. FrankMiller

    FrankMiller New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Do we want to lower a field that's in a flood plain?
  25. FrankMiller

    FrankMiller New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Do we want to lower a field that's in a flood plain?

Share This Page