Kids who aren't citizens, aren't close, and #!*%! immigration...

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by Real Corona, Oct 7, 2011.

  1. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    Unfortunately I don't think you can pass your citizenship on to your grand-nephew.
     
  2. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think I see the answer is all this:

    How old can an orphan be and still be eligible under this program?

    Adoptions that are not processed through the orphan program must be completed before the child is 16 years old in order for the child to obtain any benefits as a child under immigration law. If you adopt through the orphan program, the I-600 must be properly filed before the child turns 16 years old.

    The only exception to this provision is if the child being adopted is the biological brother or sister of a child that you have already adopted. In this case, the sibling adoption must be completed before that child turns 18 years old.

    He was over 16 when the adoption became official, so no immediate naturalization.
     
    Sandon Mibut and Hararea repped this.
  3. ielag

    ielag Member+

    Jul 20, 2010
    Let alone perhaps being the top dog for the next U20 cycle, Fagundez would be a Camp Cupcake candidate this January if he was eligible. Diego now has 7 goals after scoring in back-to-back games.
     
  4. KickballWizard

    Jun 11, 2013
    I know he's inching closer to citizenship. What's the chance we ever see Gideon Zelalem play for the USMNT?
     
  5. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    Unknown.

    He has a Green Card and he's had it since he first came to light in the WaPo article a couple of years ago. That means he* can't be "too far" away from citizenship. Could be in 6 months, could be 2 years.

    If he's close, then obviously the odds of him playing for us increase. If he is a citizen, then even UEFA YNT games only become provisionally cap-tying for him so he could play for Germany at U17 and then see how it goes with them.

    But if he's not a US citizen, then he's lost to us forever. If I were advising him, a lot of my advice would be predicated on how far along he is in the US citizenship process.

    *Since Gideon is a minor, technically it's his dad who has to become a US citizen and he gets it as a result.
     
    BostonRed repped this.
  6. Peretz48

    Peretz48 Member+

    Nov 9, 2003
    Los Angeles
    There's a separate thread, Gedion Zelalem to Arsenal, that has many posts discussing his status.
     
  7. KickballWizard

    Jun 11, 2013
    oh
     
  8. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    There's another goal for Fagundez. I believe that's his 9th of the season, which is more than say.................Landon Donovan.

    Fingers crossed that there's been an extended power outage in Uruguay and they haven't seen any of this...........................
     
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  9. ielag

    ielag Member+

    Jul 20, 2010
    Has Fagundez now scored (9 so far) the most goals ever in an MLS season for a teenager? Landon scored 7 as a 19 y/o.
     
  10. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    That will require actual effort to look up.

    Was Eddie Johnson 19 when he was scoring a bunch of goals for FCD in ~2004? Maybe.

    Edit: Looks like he had just turned 20 for that season.
     
  11. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    Jozy had 9 in 2007.
     
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  12. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    All this discussion about Adnan Januzaj got me looking at the FIFA rules on new citizenship.

    7 Acquisition of a new nationality
    Any Player who refers to art. 5 par. 1 to assume a new nationality and who
    has not played international football in accordance with art. 5 par. 2 shall be
    eligible to play for the new representative team only if he fulfills one of the
    following conditions:
    a) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
    b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of
    the relevant Association;
    c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the
    relevant Association;
    d) He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of

    18 on the territory of the relevant Association
    How strict is FIFA's interpretation of the bolded section? Reading it literally seems to eliminate any player who moves here and is naturalized until that player has reached age 23 at a minimum. I found some interpretation of "lived" in a separate document, but it doesn't really help. It basically says that being "domiciled in a place" doesn't count as "living in" a place (so you can't play overseas and claim residency.

    The key piece is "age of 18"... seems that expecting a player to wait that long is pretty tough.

    There is another section (Article 6) that talks about 2 years (without reference to age), but it seems to be referring to those who have held citizenship since birth, but weren't born (or their parents/grandparents were not born) in the country.

     
  13. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    So wait a second - if my son gets citizenship from an EU country based on my grandparents, 100% copacetic, he could have citizenship without being able to play on their national team? Basically he would get an EU passport and not be eligible to play for the European country he is a citizen of?

    What about any Jewish person being able to get Israeli citizenship? Have any players been denied the ability to play for Israel because their only reason for citizenship is their religion? (this is just one example that seems to deny a country the right to pick its citizens)

    Also, it seems that Zelalem would not qualify for US MNT at all, since he is not 18 and likely won't live in the US past age 18. Fagundez would be similar I suppose, in the US as a youth but not born here, so not eligible to play for the US MNT. It's ironic that there are many non-citizens selected for state and regional ODP teams, with no concern for whether the player could play for the US MNT.

    In some ways, it seems that FIFA wants to take away a country's right to determine who is a citizen and who is not. And the rules vary quite a bit from country to country. Ethnically, my family is from one non-EU country, but they do not have "by blood" citizenship at all, just residency-based citizenship. Geographically, they are from a EU country that does have "by blood" citizenship, back as far as we can prove subject to specific rules.
     
  14. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A Jew would be under the same rules as above. If no parent/grandparent/birth in territory... it's either 2 or 5 years of residency (depending on if that is considered "naturalization").

    Zelalem seems to be the same problem. He won't be living in the US. It would be helpful if he got US citizenship before playing a provisionally cap-tying game with Germany in case things change, but it appears he would be unlikely to qualify to play for the US under current rules.

    As far as ODP, I don't think we want regional officials digging that deeply into citizenship if they are only going to be playing against other US-based kids. It's not like USSF has been that good at figuring out all the issues involved.
     
  15. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I imagine the same might apply for Manneh?

    Or perhaps he's still claiming to be a resident of the US while playing in Canada?
     
  16. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    There was a scandal in Massachusetts, I believe involving a 1995 birthyear player who had school records indicating he was born in 1993 "and everybody knew it and did nothing about it". Also know several regional players in their teens with little or no English, came over in early teens. Just seems odd, that the ODP program is ostensibly to pick players for the NTs or Olympic teams, and they don't even ask about citizenship. Yet conversely, do you think that any American in Europe could try out for a regional team in an EU country?
     
  17. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's what I'm thinking... Of course, Gambia may be calling soon.

    He could still live in the US and commute, but that would have taken some planning and a willingness to do it (and a keen eye for FIFA regulations that even we haven't really noticed).
     
  18. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Age issues are different from nationality ones. ODP follows the USOC rules that you must be eligible to gain citizenship by the next set of events. That's pretty broad and we don't know if some non-FIFA events (say, World University Games) use FIFA standards for citizenship or some other rules. But this isn't the venue to discuss that.

    I do wonder, though, if these FIFA rules pretty much eliminate anyone who naturalizes from playing in an official youth competition since there's no way to be here 5 years after age 18 when you are 20?
     
  19. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    We've had these debates ad nasuem, and its quite tricky.

    I do believe there's been a mandate from above to identify, scout, and include these foreign players living in the US in these types of programs at as early an age as possible. One of these days we're going to be able to grab a player like Zelalem, Najar, or Fagundez into the US pool BECAUSE they were identified and helped along the path to citizenship at an earlier date.
     
  20. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm going to throw this in here as well:

    ARTICLE 5 – Principle
    1. Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the association of that country.
    2. With the exception of the conditions specified in article 8 below, any player who has already participated in a match (either in full or part) in an official competition of any category or any type of football for one association may not play an international match for a representative team of another association.


    Article 6 covers a person holding more than one nationality (with 2 year rule)

    Article 7 covers a person gaining a new nationality (with 5 years after age 18 rule)

    The confusing piece is does Article 6 only cover those nationalities that come from birth or does it include nationalities acquired at some other time prior to age 18? I think Article 6 only covers those nationalities held at birth (even adoption doesn't meet the muster unless the adoptive parents are "similar" in heritage). FIFA did state they wanted to make sure that youth players were not taken advantage of.

    I'm just surprised it hasn't been talked about much in the soccer press when discussing non-citizen youth players. Perhaps I have an erroneous reading or there is some interpretation out there that is different or they never bothered to look at it.
     
  21. USvsIRELAND

    USvsIRELAND Member+

    Jul 19, 2004
    ATL
    No. Your son can play for that EU team.

    See: numerous players who play for Ireland through Grandparents despite never having lived there.
     
  22. USvsIRELAND

    USvsIRELAND Member+

    Jul 19, 2004
    ATL
    Seems to cover Zelalem if his parents get citizenship that automatically drops down to him (prior to age 18).
     
  23. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually, he is talking about the kid's great-grandparents. That appears to be too far removed without living there.
     
  24. USvsIRELAND

    USvsIRELAND Member+

    Jul 19, 2004
    ATL
    Depends on the country. Ireland for example citizenship can pass down from one generation to the next forever as long as the children's birth is recorded in the foreign births register. So hypothetically my great great great great great grandkids could have irish citizenship even if several generations never set foot on the island.
     
  25. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Look at Article 6 then:

    A Player who, under the terms of art. 5, is eligible to represent more than
    one Association on account of his nationality, may play in an international
    match for one of these Associations only if, in addition to having the relevant
    nationality, he fulfills at least one of the following conditions:
    a) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
    b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of
    the relevant Association;
    c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the
    relevant Association;
    d) He has lived continuously on the territory of the relevant Association for
    at least two years


    Article 5 just lays out the general principle that nationality holders are eligible to represent their countries. The really confusing part is would Zelalem be covered under Article 6 (which just says you have multiple citizenships) or Article 7 (which is about acquiring a new citizenship). Maybe the interpretation of Article 6 is that you acquired this before 18 (though we know FIFA wants to protect younger players from being taken advantage of), but it isn't explicit.

    Maybe your interpretation of Article 6 is accurate, which would explain how a Shane O'Neill might be eligible, but the lack of specificity is troubling. Even adoption isn't covered under the interpretations I have seen. Can't wait to write a doctoral thesis on this subject...
     
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